how to get proper tallent into UK motorsport?
Discussion
ok this might sound a bit harsh but in today's world of motorsport (and for as long as I can remember), it has always been a case of you have to pay your way up the levels of motorsport.
To be more tallented and more skillful and more dedicated than the rest is not enough to see you rise to 'stardom' as such. It is usually the case that you have to pay your way in through the door and keep paying to rise to the next level.
The only other circumstances I know of is that you happen to know somebody 'important' and they give you a 'shot at it'.
As the above seems to be the overwhelming situation, then obviously the real tallent is going to be 2nd, 3rd, 4th place etc. to the people with the free pass....ie the money.
So what can be done to resolve this so that the uk can see genuine raw telent come through the door?
Is it just the nature of the sport.... can it be called a true sport if its only the money that sees a driver progress?
Please discuss.
(Also feel free to correct me if you feel I've simplified it too much - or too much of a synical view).
To be more tallented and more skillful and more dedicated than the rest is not enough to see you rise to 'stardom' as such. It is usually the case that you have to pay your way in through the door and keep paying to rise to the next level.
The only other circumstances I know of is that you happen to know somebody 'important' and they give you a 'shot at it'.
As the above seems to be the overwhelming situation, then obviously the real tallent is going to be 2nd, 3rd, 4th place etc. to the people with the free pass....ie the money.
So what can be done to resolve this so that the uk can see genuine raw telent come through the door?
Is it just the nature of the sport.... can it be called a true sport if its only the money that sees a driver progress?
Please discuss.
(Also feel free to correct me if you feel I've simplified it too much - or too much of a synical view).
in my limited experience - it is a bit of a pyramid.......
there are skint people with lots of talent that can't afford to go racing
there are rich people with zero talent that can afford to go racing......
however - when you start getting up the pyramid.....the people without talent are weeded out, as are the people without money.
You are then left with people with talent and money........and there you have your high profile racing drivers.
Of course there are people who have a great talent but can't do anything with it.....but equally, money buys experience, and it doesn't matter how much talent one has......if someone has raced more, at a higher level they will automatically be better than the talented amateur.
There are exceptions I'm sure - of 'muppets' who just pay to be there........but it doesn't last long as a career for those types.
It is just the way it is unfortunately - motorracing is expensive.
there are skint people with lots of talent that can't afford to go racing
there are rich people with zero talent that can afford to go racing......
however - when you start getting up the pyramid.....the people without talent are weeded out, as are the people without money.
You are then left with people with talent and money........and there you have your high profile racing drivers.
Of course there are people who have a great talent but can't do anything with it.....but equally, money buys experience, and it doesn't matter how much talent one has......if someone has raced more, at a higher level they will automatically be better than the talented amateur.
There are exceptions I'm sure - of 'muppets' who just pay to be there........but it doesn't last long as a career for those types.
It is just the way it is unfortunately - motorracing is expensive.
At an ammateur level, there are plenty of opportunities to race cars for a cost comparable to that of keen golfing but as the previous poster says, it is an inherently expensive sport.
What should be done is to remove the correlation between budget and career progression – most obviously by only awarding next grade licenses to those drivers finishing in the top three of the championship below that of next one up (at the moment, IIRC, you only have to compete in the championship).
Don’t forget that Lewis Hamilton made it to F1 from a council house background
What should be done is to remove the correlation between budget and career progression – most obviously by only awarding next grade licenses to those drivers finishing in the top three of the championship below that of next one up (at the moment, IIRC, you only have to compete in the championship).
Don’t forget that Lewis Hamilton made it to F1 from a council house background
I don't know if it's relevant to the topic of 'UK Motorsport', but many of the top drivers of F1 in recent years have not been from monied backgrounds.
I'm thinking Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Hamilton etc.
Is UK motorsport really short of talent? I must admit that i wasn't aware that it was.
I'm thinking Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Hamilton etc.
Is UK motorsport really short of talent? I must admit that i wasn't aware that it was.
The last couple of VXR driver of the year competitions have yielded not too bad drivers who are now doing okay for themselves. The guy who won it in 2008 is a bit of a tool buit the guy who won it in 2007 is a proper decent racer and I think he's with Thorney in the Dunlop Sportmaxx at the moment. other than that there are some new karting challenge type events like the Sodi world series and NKA competitions which have just started we'll have to see what happens there as they are both new things.
StevieBee said:
Don’t forget that Lewis Hamilton made it to F1 from a council house background
You've been fed a large spoonful of media bulls
t and swallowed it nicely. Lewis Hamilton was a spoiled little rich kid whos dad did hold down a couple of high paying jobs to pay but he wasn't short of a few bob. So Lewis was certainly not from a "council estate background" no matter how much the media / PR / bullst, machine which follows him around wants you to believe itsperminator said:
Lewis Hamilton was a spoiled little rich kid
Woah!!!!!!!!!I don't know what it is about Hamilton, I really don't. I can fully understand that if someone chooses to not like a driver, no matter how absurd the reasons might be, that is there choice, but in my 30 years of following f1 closely i have never known a driver to have attracted so many lies and absolute utter nonsense said about him.
If he's so bad, why does so much utter rubbish have to be said about him? The last one was something like when someone said here on PH that after the Hungarian qualifying Hamilton was out of his car gesticulating 'No 1!!!' frantically at the camera. Then when i watched it I saw nothing of the sort. I just saw Alonso asking the other drivers what lap times they'd done.
If Hamilton was a spoiled rich kid then I'm George Best.
The media hype machine and a team of ghost writers have seen to it that those who didn't race with / against him and didn't get the inside track (pardon the pun) on him believe what they want people to believe. I actualy quite like him he's not a bad kid and hes actualy quite a character. What I object to is the piss poor attempt at media manipultion which goes every where he goes.
sperminator said:
The media hype machine and a team of ghost writers have seen to it that those who didn't race with / against him and didn't get the inside track (pardon the pun) on him believe what they want people to believe. I actualy quite like him he's not a bad kid and hes actualy quite a character. What I object to is the piss poor attempt at media manipultion which goes every where he goes.
When did all this start. When he was 6?It's an expensive business and that will always be a problem. Jenson of course famously didn't win F3, he came third, to Luciano Burti and Marc Hynes, Marc didn't have the funding that Jenson had manage to secured and disappeared into obscurity (that's not entirely true, he's done bits but you get the idea).
If you watch the feeder series and the young racers in the UK you'll know that there are many many great drivers who don't have the funding to go any further and that will always be the case when we have a pyramid where only a very few make it to the pinnacle.
There is a huge amount of talent in the UK, but as there isn't room for all of them at the top many will end up doing other things or working as jobbing instructors etc.
If you watch the feeder series and the young racers in the UK you'll know that there are many many great drivers who don't have the funding to go any further and that will always be the case when we have a pyramid where only a very few make it to the pinnacle.
There is a huge amount of talent in the UK, but as there isn't room for all of them at the top many will end up doing other things or working as jobbing instructors etc.
Semi hemi said:
heebeegeetee said:
lord summerisle said:
heebeegeetee said:
If Hamilton was a spoiled rich kid then I'm George Best.
Hi George
To put a different spin on it, and going back to basics. To work through the ladder you are going to need at leat £1.5m and more likely £2m+ from your first test in a car to being in a position to talk seriously to a major employer:
Now the options would appear to be:
Sponsorship (almost always provided by the driver) can be improved:
And the series themselves can do much more - note how the Ginetta Junior championship gets more TV profile than GP2 in the UK. One is part of a popular package with healthy figures, one is now lost on a subscription with no logical reason to tune in.
The third option is an organisation that provides at least basic money (or underwrites) in return for a percentage of future earnings. This might be the MSA, or venture capital looking to turn a profit. This is possible, but consider the risk vs return:
Finally you have a hybrid option. The Red Bull scheme sort of does this, as do some manufacturers (but name a single British brand that could do this). Seat tried it, but pulled out. BMW could do it and did in the '70s-'80s (through the dealer network), and have the credentials to stick with it. If the MSA could offer them (and others) a better package, something like it could return.
But my experience is that it's not in the nature of motor racing people to look at the bigger picture and longer term. So I don't see anything like it happening.
- One year in a feeder series like FRenault
- Two years in F3
- One year in GP2
Now the options would appear to be:
- Reduce the costs
- Find the money through sponsorship
- Find the money through bursaries and/or investment plans (a Motor Racing Stable)
Sponsorship (almost always provided by the driver) can be improved:
- Driver becomes more adept at sourcing money, or hires in specialist help
- Teams do more to secure the sponsorship
- The MSA and series organisers do more to raise the profile of their series, making it more appealing to a wider range of sponsors.
And the series themselves can do much more - note how the Ginetta Junior championship gets more TV profile than GP2 in the UK. One is part of a popular package with healthy figures, one is now lost on a subscription with no logical reason to tune in.
The third option is an organisation that provides at least basic money (or underwrites) in return for a percentage of future earnings. This might be the MSA, or venture capital looking to turn a profit. This is possible, but consider the risk vs return:
- How many berths are there where you can expect a return from a long and profitable career? 20 in F1, 50 in NASCAR, 5 in IRL, and maybe 100 more in other series around the world? Outside of these places many professional drivers are struggling to make a comfortable wage, nevermind a return on investment (and that includes some surprisingly high profile figures)
- How many drivers will you need in your stable to be confident of getting a couple into those seats?
Finally you have a hybrid option. The Red Bull scheme sort of does this, as do some manufacturers (but name a single British brand that could do this). Seat tried it, but pulled out. BMW could do it and did in the '70s-'80s (through the dealer network), and have the credentials to stick with it. If the MSA could offer them (and others) a better package, something like it could return.
But my experience is that it's not in the nature of motor racing people to look at the bigger picture and longer term. So I don't see anything like it happening.
great reply Rich.... some interesting options there.
In my opinion one of the main pitfalls of UK motorsport is that the sponsors don't seem to get very much credit and recognition at events.
I know some of the big players do, but for the sport to attract the money it needs then more attention needs to be placed on ALL the sponsors, from the minnows to the big players.
And why not bring back tobacco advertising in the UK..... I think people have got the idea by now that smoking is not good for health....so leave it upto the individual to make a choice and not being forced through the government. (I know this one is outside the control of the MSA but anyways).
The grass roots problem to start off with when racing is that most drivers find themselves eventually in a catch-22 situation.
That being they use up their savings to get a racing license and a race or two in order they get a feel for it. They find that they have a talent and a desire to go further but alas they have no further money to do so. So they then look to find sponsors.
But from the sponsor's point of view, a driver starting out with no proven track record of wins and championship points etc. etc. is not even going to be on their list of maybe's.
So the talent either gives up, or is only able to continue to race only as and when saving allow....which in today's cost of motorsport will be very rarely.
But if the culture of UK motorsport were to change so that even finishing at the back still got the sponsors a decent amount of recognition then maybe proven track records for drivers would not be so much of an issue in order to get the sponsors to part with their cash.
In my opinion one of the main pitfalls of UK motorsport is that the sponsors don't seem to get very much credit and recognition at events.
I know some of the big players do, but for the sport to attract the money it needs then more attention needs to be placed on ALL the sponsors, from the minnows to the big players.
And why not bring back tobacco advertising in the UK..... I think people have got the idea by now that smoking is not good for health....so leave it upto the individual to make a choice and not being forced through the government. (I know this one is outside the control of the MSA but anyways).
The grass roots problem to start off with when racing is that most drivers find themselves eventually in a catch-22 situation.
That being they use up their savings to get a racing license and a race or two in order they get a feel for it. They find that they have a talent and a desire to go further but alas they have no further money to do so. So they then look to find sponsors.
But from the sponsor's point of view, a driver starting out with no proven track record of wins and championship points etc. etc. is not even going to be on their list of maybe's.
So the talent either gives up, or is only able to continue to race only as and when saving allow....which in today's cost of motorsport will be very rarely.
But if the culture of UK motorsport were to change so that even finishing at the back still got the sponsors a decent amount of recognition then maybe proven track records for drivers would not be so much of an issue in order to get the sponsors to part with their cash.
at the end of the day........everyone wants to drive a racing car if they are interested in racing.So any business either has an owner of that business that wants to race, or his son, or his mate, or his grandma.......
why would he give the money to you, that he doesn't know......to get started?
He basically wouldn't.........he would go straight to a Club championship and pick some youngster and give that team the money. (like the fabulous Ginetta Juniors series)
or, he would sponsor something local, like a one circuit championship for his local company.
The fact of the matter is - not that many people come and watch racing.......and if its not televised you have no chance.
If it is televised - it is very expensive......and so only the bigger companies spend.
So - people spend the money on racing because they love it..........and hence don't sponsor strangers.
The only way in, is to be rich and talented.......and thats fine by me......as it has always been that way and always will.
Edited by RacerMDR on Tuesday 11th August 16:42
AJI said:
great reply Rich.... some interesting options there.
In my opinion one of the main pitfalls of UK motorsport is that the sponsors don't seem to get very much credit and recognition at events.
I know some of the big players do, but for the sport to attract the money it needs then more attention needs to be placed on ALL the sponsors, from the minnows to the big players.
And why not bring back tobacco advertising in the UK..... I think people have got the idea by now that smoking is not good for health....so leave it upto the individual to make a choice and not being forced through the government. (I know this one is outside the control of the MSA but anyways).
The grass roots problem to start off with when racing is that most drivers find themselves eventually in a catch-22 situation.
That being they use up their savings to get a racing license and a race or two in order they get a feel for it. They find that they have a talent and a desire to go further but alas they have no further money to do so. So they then look to find sponsors.
But from the sponsor's point of view, a driver starting out with no proven track record of wins and championship points etc. etc. is not even going to be on their list of maybe's.
So the talent either gives up, or is only able to continue to race only as and when saving allow....which in today's cost of motorsport will be very rarely.
But if the culture of UK motorsport were to change so that even finishing at the back still got the sponsors a decent amount of recognition then maybe proven track records for drivers would not be so much of an issue in order to get the sponsors to part with their cash.
I'm still not sure what the problem is though. British drivers are in F1 and we have a decent history at the top level, and UK club sport and other international participation seems to be at a decent level, so... what's the problem?In my opinion one of the main pitfalls of UK motorsport is that the sponsors don't seem to get very much credit and recognition at events.
I know some of the big players do, but for the sport to attract the money it needs then more attention needs to be placed on ALL the sponsors, from the minnows to the big players.
And why not bring back tobacco advertising in the UK..... I think people have got the idea by now that smoking is not good for health....so leave it upto the individual to make a choice and not being forced through the government. (I know this one is outside the control of the MSA but anyways).
The grass roots problem to start off with when racing is that most drivers find themselves eventually in a catch-22 situation.
That being they use up their savings to get a racing license and a race or two in order they get a feel for it. They find that they have a talent and a desire to go further but alas they have no further money to do so. So they then look to find sponsors.
But from the sponsor's point of view, a driver starting out with no proven track record of wins and championship points etc. etc. is not even going to be on their list of maybe's.
So the talent either gives up, or is only able to continue to race only as and when saving allow....which in today's cost of motorsport will be very rarely.
But if the culture of UK motorsport were to change so that even finishing at the back still got the sponsors a decent amount of recognition then maybe proven track records for drivers would not be so much of an issue in order to get the sponsors to part with their cash.
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