Safety lessons
Discussion
I have been pondering posting this since Sunday's events and now that it has been raised on the Anglesey thread I think the time is right. Please note I'm not trying to be alarmist. As you probably know I've done my share of Tuscan crash testing in 2003-4, but when I changed from the open Tuscan to the closed top Sagaris I decided I couldn't take the risk of fuel in the car next to me in anything less than a full bladder-type safety cell.
There are some obvious implications from Sunday:
1) Always wear long fireproof underwear and balaclavas, no matter how hot or uncomfortable you may be
2) Do ensure your fire extinguisher is regularly serviced, the pull cables or wiring work and the nozzles, particularly on older cars, are clean and free of dirt. Remove the nozzles and clean them if necessary. (Graham's extinguisher at Cadwell did very little because the nozzles were blocked)
3) If you have to stretch to reach the pull cable or it is located on the tonneau over the fuel bay, move it to somewhere better. The extinguisher pull on Owen's car was mounted on the bit that was on fire - not that the little on board extinguisher would have done anything other than give Owen a few seconds protection to get out had he needed it.
There are also some less obvious ones....
The vast majority of cars in the Challenge are fitted with rigid, single skin ali fuel tanks. The odd one (including Ben's) has a rigid composite ATL 'saver' cell. Ali doesn't like heat and vibration and eventually becomes brittle. Some of the cars are quite old now - Darren Dowling's tank cracked and sprang a leak at Rockingham in 2007. They will obviously only deform to a limited degree in an impact. There is the odd car in the challenge with the tank slung out at the back where it is very vulnerable
The standard Tuscan has a couple of achilles heels with respect to its fuel system:
1) No roll over valves on the tank
2) The fuel filler is attached to the 'rigid' tonneau. In a relatively light impact the tonneau cover will be deflected upwards and the fuel filler pulled off the neck of the tank. As there is no valve on the tank, fuel will then spill out. Tim Hood's fire at Combe was from vibration shaking the filler loose. Steve Glynne had a fire at Oulton from an impact which pulled the top off.
3) People sometimes attach the side exhaust with an overly long bolt pointing in towards the car. In a side impact this could be driven through the fuel tank. The car previously driven by Nathan Freke suffered something similar in 2003/4. Check the rear securing bolt, and change if necessary.
4) There is no fuel pump cut off triggered either by the engine stopping or from an impact. From reports of the accident Ben's car was also leaking fuel. His fuel cell may have been ruptured in the impact -or a fuel line may have become detached. I doubt Ben was able to hit the electrical kill switch and the fuel spillage could have been the pump continuing to pump fuel out through a broken line
The best solution is to fit a proper FIA spec safety cell - the nylon/kevlar bladder type. These can take a big whack and deform rather than split. It is worth bearing in mind that in the big accident involving Andy Neate and Richard Dean at the start of last year's Britcar 24, both cars were fitted with saftey cells. In both cars the containers holding the bladders were deformed or split from the impact, both the cells remained intact.
They are not cheap, but I strongly urge you to consider a group buy of a standard sized cell which would bring the price down for all of you. Probably to around the cost of a set of slicks
An advantage of this type of cell is that the fuel pump and collector are internal. You have a fuel line out to the fuel rail and another line back and that is it. There is no additional plumbing, pumps or collectors to leak, break etc.. and the connectors are all the AN type screw fittings which for braided hose which are far more secure than rubber hoses and jubilee clips
I have an ECU which cuts the fuel pump off within second if the engine stops turning. I appreciate the Tuscan ECU cannot perform the same function, but I think there are circuit breakers on the market which will trip if there is an impact above a certain severity. Worth considering - you might not always be able to hit the kill switch
Fortunately events like Sunday's big crash are very rare and throughout Tuscan history every driver has always been ok. The purpose of this post is to say that whilst the big crashes are rare, the incidents of fires are actually more common than you might think. We are fortunate none have caused injury or major damage, but if we rely on good fortune sooner or later the luck will run out.
You can never take all of the risk out of motor sport, but you can stack the odds more in your favour - please give it some serious consideration.
I have a contact at ATL if anyone wants it - nice guy, he races a Ginetta G20 himself.
There is a question about the safety of the Tuscan roll cage on the other thread. I'd respond by saying it its probably one of the most comprehensively crash tested cages around - by that I mean it has been crashed in real life an enormous number of times. Clearly the cage needs to be in good condition and the welds complete and visually good, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with it in my opinion.
There are some obvious implications from Sunday:
1) Always wear long fireproof underwear and balaclavas, no matter how hot or uncomfortable you may be
2) Do ensure your fire extinguisher is regularly serviced, the pull cables or wiring work and the nozzles, particularly on older cars, are clean and free of dirt. Remove the nozzles and clean them if necessary. (Graham's extinguisher at Cadwell did very little because the nozzles were blocked)
3) If you have to stretch to reach the pull cable or it is located on the tonneau over the fuel bay, move it to somewhere better. The extinguisher pull on Owen's car was mounted on the bit that was on fire - not that the little on board extinguisher would have done anything other than give Owen a few seconds protection to get out had he needed it.
There are also some less obvious ones....
The vast majority of cars in the Challenge are fitted with rigid, single skin ali fuel tanks. The odd one (including Ben's) has a rigid composite ATL 'saver' cell. Ali doesn't like heat and vibration and eventually becomes brittle. Some of the cars are quite old now - Darren Dowling's tank cracked and sprang a leak at Rockingham in 2007. They will obviously only deform to a limited degree in an impact. There is the odd car in the challenge with the tank slung out at the back where it is very vulnerable
The standard Tuscan has a couple of achilles heels with respect to its fuel system:
1) No roll over valves on the tank
2) The fuel filler is attached to the 'rigid' tonneau. In a relatively light impact the tonneau cover will be deflected upwards and the fuel filler pulled off the neck of the tank. As there is no valve on the tank, fuel will then spill out. Tim Hood's fire at Combe was from vibration shaking the filler loose. Steve Glynne had a fire at Oulton from an impact which pulled the top off.
3) People sometimes attach the side exhaust with an overly long bolt pointing in towards the car. In a side impact this could be driven through the fuel tank. The car previously driven by Nathan Freke suffered something similar in 2003/4. Check the rear securing bolt, and change if necessary.
4) There is no fuel pump cut off triggered either by the engine stopping or from an impact. From reports of the accident Ben's car was also leaking fuel. His fuel cell may have been ruptured in the impact -or a fuel line may have become detached. I doubt Ben was able to hit the electrical kill switch and the fuel spillage could have been the pump continuing to pump fuel out through a broken line
The best solution is to fit a proper FIA spec safety cell - the nylon/kevlar bladder type. These can take a big whack and deform rather than split. It is worth bearing in mind that in the big accident involving Andy Neate and Richard Dean at the start of last year's Britcar 24, both cars were fitted with saftey cells. In both cars the containers holding the bladders were deformed or split from the impact, both the cells remained intact.
They are not cheap, but I strongly urge you to consider a group buy of a standard sized cell which would bring the price down for all of you. Probably to around the cost of a set of slicks
An advantage of this type of cell is that the fuel pump and collector are internal. You have a fuel line out to the fuel rail and another line back and that is it. There is no additional plumbing, pumps or collectors to leak, break etc.. and the connectors are all the AN type screw fittings which for braided hose which are far more secure than rubber hoses and jubilee clips
I have an ECU which cuts the fuel pump off within second if the engine stops turning. I appreciate the Tuscan ECU cannot perform the same function, but I think there are circuit breakers on the market which will trip if there is an impact above a certain severity. Worth considering - you might not always be able to hit the kill switch
Fortunately events like Sunday's big crash are very rare and throughout Tuscan history every driver has always been ok. The purpose of this post is to say that whilst the big crashes are rare, the incidents of fires are actually more common than you might think. We are fortunate none have caused injury or major damage, but if we rely on good fortune sooner or later the luck will run out.
You can never take all of the risk out of motor sport, but you can stack the odds more in your favour - please give it some serious consideration.
I have a contact at ATL if anyone wants it - nice guy, he races a Ginetta G20 himself.
There is a question about the safety of the Tuscan roll cage on the other thread. I'd respond by saying it its probably one of the most comprehensively crash tested cages around - by that I mean it has been crashed in real life an enormous number of times. Clearly the cage needs to be in good condition and the welds complete and visually good, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with it in my opinion.
Thanks Andy, Just to comment on that. I did have the pull for the fire extinguisher moved inside the cab on the left earlier this year, which enabled me to get to it quickly.
In addition to this, I had run through the "what-ifs" previously should something like this happen. Really in an attempt to be process driven should an emergency occur. Its something which was drilled into me when learning to fly and clearly served me well on Sunday.
mainly
fire ext
wheel off
harness
out
which served me well on Sunday. Looking at the footage I managed to get all the above done within about 6 seconds of impact. I would have hated to be a position where panic would have caused me to forget the wheel or to be unable to set off the extinguisher. Things can suddenly appear to be in different places when you cant see them.
I would urge eneryone to spend some time sitting in their car and running through an "emergency exit" process. Im sure all if not most have done it, just when waiting in the assembly area.
O
In addition to this, I had run through the "what-ifs" previously should something like this happen. Really in an attempt to be process driven should an emergency occur. Its something which was drilled into me when learning to fly and clearly served me well on Sunday.
mainly
fire ext
wheel off
harness
out
which served me well on Sunday. Looking at the footage I managed to get all the above done within about 6 seconds of impact. I would have hated to be a position where panic would have caused me to forget the wheel or to be unable to set off the extinguisher. Things can suddenly appear to be in different places when you cant see them.
I would urge eneryone to spend some time sitting in their car and running through an "emergency exit" process. Im sure all if not most have done it, just when waiting in the assembly area.
O
Edited by Obiwonkeyblokey on Thursday 13th August 13:11
Really good idea Owen - and good also you had the extinguisher pull moved.
There are two things that proper scare me about race cars and its not hitting things. One is the throttle sticking open (which leads to hitting things very hard indeed). The other is catching fire. Its why I put both the power kill switch (and hence engine kill) and fire extinguisher buttons right up close to the steering wheel on my Sag, inches from where my hands are on the wheel.
We all put what could go wrong to the back of our minds or we wouldn't race at all, but its well worth running through what could go wrong - both in terms of design of safety equipment and drilling yourself
There are two things that proper scare me about race cars and its not hitting things. One is the throttle sticking open (which leads to hitting things very hard indeed). The other is catching fire. Its why I put both the power kill switch (and hence engine kill) and fire extinguisher buttons right up close to the steering wheel on my Sag, inches from where my hands are on the wheel.
We all put what could go wrong to the back of our minds or we wouldn't race at all, but its well worth running through what could go wrong - both in terms of design of safety equipment and drilling yourself
Sorry Andy I thought I had seen it put that Owen's cage had split in three places, hence my comment about old cages.
edited to add Owen says in another thread his cage was snapped in 4 places. I agree the cage design itself has stood up well to big impacts in the past though and even with 4 breakages Owen thankfully walked away from his car with relatively minor injuries, for which we are thankful.
edited to add Owen says in another thread his cage was snapped in 4 places. I agree the cage design itself has stood up well to big impacts in the past though and even with 4 breakages Owen thankfully walked away from his car with relatively minor injuries, for which we are thankful.
Edited by spitfire4v8 on Thursday 13th August 14:27
You can see from this picture that the car took an almighty spanking and the rollcage was damaged although personally I think it did its job pretty well. Its also clear that Andys advice on fuel tanks, their connstruction and their location is important. Having said that it was sods law that I hit Ben exactly where the tank is.
If anyone is offended or worried about the picture then I apologise, however the intention is to use the experience of the weekend to learn what we can, rather than anything else. I am happy to remove it at the request of Ben or his family.
If anyone is offended or worried about the picture then I apologise, however the intention is to use the experience of the weekend to learn what we can, rather than anything else. I am happy to remove it at the request of Ben or his family.
Edited by Obiwonkeyblokey on Thursday 13th August 14:32
spitfire4v8 said:
Sorry Andy I thought I had seen it put that Owen's cage had split in three places, hence my comment about old cages.
edited to add Owen says in another thread his cage was snapped in 4 places. I agree the cage design itself has stood up well to big impacts in the past though and even with 4 breakages Owen thankfully walked away from his car with relatively minor injuries, for which we are thankful.
Jules - Owen's car was a lightweight special. I think (but can't be 100% certain) that the cage on it was made from T45 steel which is lighter than the standard CDS and strong, but I believe is more brittle. In addition the car was burning for some time as attention was rightly focussed on Ben - the extreme heat may have contributed to the damage to the cage, in addition to the impact.edited to add Owen says in another thread his cage was snapped in 4 places. I agree the cage design itself has stood up well to big impacts in the past though and even with 4 breakages Owen thankfully walked away from his car with relatively minor injuries, for which we are thankful.
Edited by spitfire4v8 on Thursday 13th August 14:27
teamHOLDENracing said:
spitfire4v8 said:
Sorry Andy I thought I had seen it put that Owen's cage had split in three places, hence my comment about old cages.
edited to add Owen says in another thread his cage was snapped in 4 places. I agree the cage design itself has stood up well to big impacts in the past though and even with 4 breakages Owen thankfully walked away from his car with relatively minor injuries, for which we are thankful.
Jules - Owen's car was a lightweight special. I think (but can't be 100% certain) that the cage on it was made from T45 steel which is lighter than the standard CDS and strong, but I believe is more brittle. In addition the car was burning for some time as attention was rightly focussed on Ben - the extreme heat may have contributed to the damage to the cage, in addition to the impact.edited to add Owen says in another thread his cage was snapped in 4 places. I agree the cage design itself has stood up well to big impacts in the past though and even with 4 breakages Owen thankfully walked away from his car with relatively minor injuries, for which we are thankful.
Edited by spitfire4v8 on Thursday 13th August 14:27
Pre crash it was the prettiest car out there too.I think that all the posts are valuable and that we need to consider safety aspects thoroughly. Andy's post is very good. The cars have been crash tested a little as he says !!! It is fair to say that the basic car is extremely strong. The fuel tank area is something that I think needs needs looking at. After all the cars are mainly glass fibre and burn quite well.
It is easy to forget that the basic design of a Tuscan was late 1980s and there are a few areas where safety has improved since then. They are still fine cars and that was shown by the fact that Owen and Ben survived a very big shunt.
It is easy to forget that the basic design of a Tuscan was late 1980s and there are a few areas where safety has improved since then. They are still fine cars and that was shown by the fact that Owen and Ben survived a very big shunt.
teamHOLDENracing said:
One is the throttle sticking open (which leads to hitting things very hard indeed). The other is catching fire.
in my case I managed both at the same time!!!! throttle stuck open. I killed he emgine master switch, but aleady too late to make the corner ( park at Cadwell) Hit the tyre wall and front caught fire with oil from oil coolers....I pulled the fire ex, but very little came out of the nozzels... dust in the end of them blocked up as soon as the AFFF made them wet.. I now blow them out every season at least with an air line...
I've been looking at fuel cells for a while, so if any one is interested in a form of group buy im interested... They are not cheap but are safer and do make the fuel system simpler...
My car does have the main fuel pump ecu controlled but th low pressure pump to the swirl pot isnt.. so even if the ecu cut that with the master switch on fuel can still flow... with a proper cell with an internal hp pump i can get rid of the extra wiring and the lp pump and the swirl pot..
I do believe that The Tuscan is Inherently a very safe car, as is the tasmin with a very similar design on the cage, and a very strong nose if standard, and even side impact bars !!
having said that there are lessons we can learn from every crash.
G
It was excellent to hear that Ben and Owen were ok after Castle Combe 
.
Fuel safety is one area where the Tuscan could be improved - as so well outlined here by Andy.
Cant fault the Metal Work on the Challenge cars though.
On the Combe weekend , we were at Anglesey carrying out our own investigations into Tuscan impact resistance
..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juylZacy6G0
.Fuel safety is one area where the Tuscan could be improved - as so well outlined here by Andy.
Cant fault the Metal Work on the Challenge cars though.
On the Combe weekend , we were at Anglesey carrying out our own investigations into Tuscan impact resistance
..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juylZacy6G0
Edited by RetroWheels on Saturday 22 August 16:44
RetroWheels said:
It was excellent to hear that Ben and Owen were ok after Castle Combe .
Fuel safety is one area where the Tuscan could be improved - as so well outlined here by Andy.
Cant fault the Metal Work on the Challenge cars though.
On the Combe weekend , we were carry out our own investigations into Tuscan impact resistance..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juylZacy6G0
s.Fuel safety is one area where the Tuscan could be improved - as so well outlined here by Andy.
Cant fault the Metal Work on the Challenge cars though.
On the Combe weekend , we were carry out our own investigations into Tuscan impact resistance
..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juylZacy6G0
t Darren, glad you are ok.How is the Car?
Hi Mark,
Car needs a bonnet,rad etc, most of the drivers front corner (hub w/bones etc)and the rear of the gearbox casing split so that's being rebuilt.
Chassis is good -thank god - and the car is at Bristol Ave, being repairedby Simon and Danny at Fred's GTF workshop.
Should be back on track next month.
What a strong car though , Doctor at Anglesey told me i was very lucky to have been in a Tuscan ,as a lesser car could have resulted in some serious injury
.
Anyway, it's all going back together , Reidy's got most of the parts that i haven't allready - It's just a case of shovelling money at it for the next couple of weeks
Couple of pics from last week (been to Blackpool today and it's allready looking better)..
Car needs a bonnet,rad etc, most of the drivers front corner (hub w/bones etc)and the rear of the gearbox casing split so that's being rebuilt.
Chassis is good -thank god - and the car is at Bristol Ave, being repairedby Simon and Danny at Fred's GTF workshop.
Should be back on track next month.
What a strong car though , Doctor at Anglesey told me i was very lucky to have been in a Tuscan ,as a lesser car could have resulted in some serious injury
.Anyway, it's all going back together , Reidy's got most of the parts that i haven't allready - It's just a case of shovelling money at it for the next couple of weeks
Couple of pics from last week (been to Blackpool today and it's allready looking better)..
RetroWheels said:
we were at Anglesey carrying out our own investigations into Tuscan impact resistance ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juylZacy6G0
I'm glad to see you had the good sense to have your accident right in front of the Rescue Unit...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juylZacy6G0
Same as Legends Car #8
http://www.legendsracinguk.com/ukhome.html <- vid on the news page.
the same car also parked his car on top of the Tyre Wall at Island a couple of weeks before, right by the Rescue Unit.
RetroWheels said:
It was excellent to hear that Ben and Owen were ok after Castle Combe .
Fuel safety is one area where the Tuscan could be improved - as so well outlined here by Andy.
Cant fault the Metal Work on the Challenge cars though.
On the Combe weekend , we were at Anglesey carrying out our own investigations into Tuscan impact resistance..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juylZacy6G0
Blimey, a heck of an impact..Fuel safety is one area where the Tuscan could be improved - as so well outlined here by Andy.
Cant fault the Metal Work on the Challenge cars though.
On the Combe weekend , we were at Anglesey carrying out our own investigations into Tuscan impact resistance
..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juylZacy6G0
Edited by RetroWheels on Saturday 22 August 16:44
Looking at the video it seems neither of the drivers of the Minis are wearing gloves - utter insanity, especially given what's being discussed here. I'm genuinely astounded.
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff