Formula 1 - how does the suspension work.
Discussion
I was about to post in the Corvette thread in response to stock sarcastic comment about leaf springs, that F1 cars effectively use "leaf" springs. However, before I posted I thought I'd check, and am now not so sure.
I'm sure I heard or read somewhere that F1 cars use a "leaf" (in the loosest sense of the word) as the spring medium as it is easier to alter very fine spring rate adjustments as opposed to a coil.
Unfortunately, I can find nothing which either confirms it one way or the other.
So how does it work? Did I dream it?
I'm sure I heard or read somewhere that F1 cars use a "leaf" (in the loosest sense of the word) as the spring medium as it is easier to alter very fine spring rate adjustments as opposed to a coil.
Unfortunately, I can find nothing which either confirms it one way or the other.
So how does it work? Did I dream it?
Some F1 cars use torsion bars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_bar_suspensio...
http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2009/0/626....
I thought they were mostly pushrod type, here's a little article on a pull rod being used, notable for it's break from the usual pushrod type
I thought they were mostly pushrod type, here's a little article on a pull rod being used, notable for it's break from the usual pushrod type
dazco said:
Confused by all I see there.
How the hell do those shockers work in that position?
Look at the spar coming up from the front hub. Next to where it is attached is a large round bearing. How the hell do those shockers work in that position?
The spar pushes on the ally rocker bit, which pivots on the bearing, and compresses the coilover
rhinochopig said:
I was about to post in the Corvette thread in response to stock sarcastic comment about leaf springs, that F1 cars effectively use "leaf" springs.
If you did, I'd be inclined to point out that F1 cars have very stiff suspension with very limited movement, to the point where they would be completely undriveable on the street.Hardly ideal to hold up as justification of similar technology on a road car, though for what it's worth, I'm not aware of any F1 cars that use leaf springs.
If you're trying to make parallels with race technology, I'd also be asking you to explain why, if the leaf springs are so good, all the works racing Corvettes ditch them and replace them with coilovers.
Sam_68 said:
rhinochopig said:
I was about to post in the Corvette thread in response to stock sarcastic comment about leaf springs, that F1 cars effectively use "leaf" springs.
If you did, I'd be inclined to point out that F1 cars have very stiff suspension with very limited movement, to the point where they would be completely undriveable on the street.Hardly ideal to hold up as justification of similar technology on a road car, though for what it's worth, I'm not aware of any F1 cars that use leaf springs.
If you're trying to make parallels with race technology, I'd also be asking you to explain why, if the leaf springs are so good, all the works racing Corvettes ditch them and replace them with coilovers.
dazco said:
After much looking I may have figured it out.
So the large hole on the right angle of the triangle bit (looks like it might be an allen key head) is actually a bolt that is secured to something and acts as a fulcrum.
(please tell me I am right even if I am not, it is doing my head in)
Yep, thats about the size of it!So the large hole on the right angle of the triangle bit (looks like it might be an allen key head) is actually a bolt that is secured to something and acts as a fulcrum.
(please tell me I am right even if I am not, it is doing my head in)
dazco said:
After much looking I may have figured it out.
So the large hole on the right angle of the triangle bit (looks like it might be an allen key head) is actually a bolt that is secured to something and acts as a fulcrum.
(please tell me I am right even if I am not, it is doing my head in)
Yes.So the large hole on the right angle of the triangle bit (looks like it might be an allen key head) is actually a bolt that is secured to something and acts as a fulcrum.
(please tell me I am right even if I am not, it is doing my head in)
It converts the upward push from the wheel, to a horizontal push to the damper.
AndrewW-G said:
Some F1 cars use torsion bars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_bar_suspensio...
springs are torsion bars helically woundrhinochopig said:
dazco said:
After much looking I may have figured it out.
So the large hole on the right angle of the triangle bit (looks like it might be an allen key head) is actually a bolt that is secured to something and acts as a fulcrum.
(please tell me I am right even if I am not, it is doing my head in)
Yes.So the large hole on the right angle of the triangle bit (looks like it might be an allen key head) is actually a bolt that is secured to something and acts as a fulcrum.
(please tell me I am right even if I am not, it is doing my head in)
It converts the upward push from the wheel, to a horizontal push to the damper.
Thanks all
Gents
My first post so bear with me!
F1 suspension contains another element that is analagous to a 'leaf' spring, and that is what is known as a 'flexure' - in essence this is a suspension member (wishbone leg typically) that has a felxible portion engineered into its structure. If it is a metallic bone then this might be a solid 'blade', if it is a composite bone then it might be in the form of a region of more 'durable' material that causes the bone leg to flex more in that region. The advantage of this is simplicty and light weight, the disadvantage is lack of stiffness of suspension members (although this is the subject of some debate) and that the geometry is not as 'guaranteed' as that of a member having a spherical bearing or similar.
Leaf springs themselves are much maligned, but actually very clever in their initial conception as if mounted correctly a transverse leaf will offer lateral anti-roll, and if of a multi-leaf design has inbuilt damping through friction between the leaves. Sadly all that said they are still heavy, and surpassed by modern dampers/springing methods. However, the lateral composite spring of the vette is actually not as daft as it might seem, as in effect all it is is a low profile spring element (the geometry is still controlled by wishbones) - sadly to 'tune' a composite leaf spring in the way you can with a coil is very hard to achieve in the same way. To call it a 'cart' spring is slightly unfair if we are not to make the same observation of a million and one 'hi-tech' applications of composite leaf springs.
There - my bit said!
Oh, and I do own a 'vette so I feel defensive of its design to a point!
dp
My first post so bear with me!
F1 suspension contains another element that is analagous to a 'leaf' spring, and that is what is known as a 'flexure' - in essence this is a suspension member (wishbone leg typically) that has a felxible portion engineered into its structure. If it is a metallic bone then this might be a solid 'blade', if it is a composite bone then it might be in the form of a region of more 'durable' material that causes the bone leg to flex more in that region. The advantage of this is simplicty and light weight, the disadvantage is lack of stiffness of suspension members (although this is the subject of some debate) and that the geometry is not as 'guaranteed' as that of a member having a spherical bearing or similar.
Leaf springs themselves are much maligned, but actually very clever in their initial conception as if mounted correctly a transverse leaf will offer lateral anti-roll, and if of a multi-leaf design has inbuilt damping through friction between the leaves. Sadly all that said they are still heavy, and surpassed by modern dampers/springing methods. However, the lateral composite spring of the vette is actually not as daft as it might seem, as in effect all it is is a low profile spring element (the geometry is still controlled by wishbones) - sadly to 'tune' a composite leaf spring in the way you can with a coil is very hard to achieve in the same way. To call it a 'cart' spring is slightly unfair if we are not to make the same observation of a million and one 'hi-tech' applications of composite leaf springs.
There - my bit said!
Oh, and I do own a 'vette so I feel defensive of its design to a point!
dp
Edited by dylan39 on Tuesday 1st September 14:00
The change to coil springs on the racing vettes might also be to do with the comparative lack of available leaf springs in small rate increments, plus the relative lengthy time required to change one compared to an easily accessible coil/damper arrangement (i dont know for sure, ive never seen a vette so cant comment factually, just musing things over in my head ).
I don't think any modern F1 car has used leaf/cantilevered springs. Most of an F1 car's suspension anymore is in the tires anyway. The current cars have moved from coils to torsion bars because a torsion bar, in some cases, offers a better packaging solution and, more importantly, it reduces friction in the damper. Coils around a damper can result in added static friction which impacts suspension performance. I think people are actually thinking of suspension flexures used in place of rodends for suspension pivots.
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/renaultsus.jpg
This picture shows an F1 rear suspension setup. The primary ride springs are actually torsion springs attached to the bell crank pivots. The coil spring you see is a suplimental ride spring that isn't compressed when the car rolls in a turn.
If you look at the rear pivot of the upper A-arm you will notice no rod end. Instead the suspension arm simply thins down. That thin section flexes as the arm moves. This setup has advantages and basically no friction but it also has a very limited service life. The limited service life before fatigue failure is why you won't see this setup on a Formula Ford.
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/renaultsus.jpg
This picture shows an F1 rear suspension setup. The primary ride springs are actually torsion springs attached to the bell crank pivots. The coil spring you see is a suplimental ride spring that isn't compressed when the car rolls in a turn.
If you look at the rear pivot of the upper A-arm you will notice no rod end. Instead the suspension arm simply thins down. That thin section flexes as the arm moves. This setup has advantages and basically no friction but it also has a very limited service life. The limited service life before fatigue failure is why you won't see this setup on a Formula Ford.
Slickskid said:
I don't think any modern F1 car has used leaf/cantilevered springs. Most of an F1 car's suspension anymore is in the tires anyway. The current cars have moved from coils to torsion bars because a torsion bar, in some cases, offers a better packaging solution and, more importantly, it reduces friction in the damper. Coils around a damper can result in added static friction which impacts suspension performance. I think people are actually thinking of suspension flexures used in place of rodends for suspension pivots.
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/renaultsus.jpg
This picture shows an F1 rear suspension setup. The primary ride springs are actually torsion springs attached to the bell crank pivots. The coil spring you see is a suplimental ride spring that isn't compressed when the car rolls in a turn.
If you look at the rear pivot of the upper A-arm you will notice no rod end. Instead the suspension arm simply thins down. That thin section flexes as the arm moves. This setup has advantages and basically no friction but it also has a very limited service life. The limited service life before fatigue failure is why you won't see this setup on a Formula Ford.
So the torsion beam runs vertically from the bottom of the bellcrank (the green bush / circlip looking thing) then????http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/renaultsus.jpg
This picture shows an F1 rear suspension setup. The primary ride springs are actually torsion springs attached to the bell crank pivots. The coil spring you see is a suplimental ride spring that isn't compressed when the car rolls in a turn.
If you look at the rear pivot of the upper A-arm you will notice no rod end. Instead the suspension arm simply thins down. That thin section flexes as the arm moves. This setup has advantages and basically no friction but it also has a very limited service life. The limited service life before fatigue failure is why you won't see this setup on a Formula Ford.
Hi Dylan39
Welcome to the site, excellent first post no need to "bear with" you for that content;)
As you can see from profile I am not the greatest poster on the site but like to add coment if relevant.
The site is excellent I am sure you will find it very useful and informative.
I know it's off topic...
Welcome to the site, excellent first post no need to "bear with" you for that content;)
As you can see from profile I am not the greatest poster on the site but like to add coment if relevant.
The site is excellent I am sure you will find it very useful and informative.
I know it's off topic...
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