Is Button over-rated?
Discussion
5 races in a row racing for low points paying positions
Now constantly moaning about oversteer pretty much since those last 5 races
Can't adapt to an inferior car as Button's infamous smooth driving style is useless at getting his tyres up to optimum temperature
Conversely Rubens has been the better driver - even in Nurburgring if you take into account of the fuel rig problem.
Earlier he said he was not thinking about the championship, saying he was taking each race as it comes but in Valencia he made references to his rivals in the championship.
Button feeling the heat? Over-rated? Or a bit of both?
Now constantly moaning about oversteer pretty much since those last 5 races
Can't adapt to an inferior car as Button's infamous smooth driving style is useless at getting his tyres up to optimum temperature
Conversely Rubens has been the better driver - even in Nurburgring if you take into account of the fuel rig problem.
Earlier he said he was not thinking about the championship, saying he was taking each race as it comes but in Valencia he made references to his rivals in the championship.
Button feeling the heat? Over-rated? Or a bit of both?
entropy said:
Earlier he said he was not thinking about the championship, saying he was taking each race as it comes but in Valencia he made references to his rivals in the championship.
With six races left after Valencia he is going to be thinking about the championship - makes sense really.Think he is starting to feel the heat.
TheArchitect said:
Button is a confidence driver, no confidence cant drive for toffee, however I don't think he's the same level as schumacher, prost, senna, alonso, he is more of a coulthard, irvine, montoya, good but not multiple WDC material.
good point (although I would not say Montoya is in that camp)I think we'll know by the end of the season after seeing if how he fairs against Barri in the last few races.
I do'nt rate him personally. He goes from "you've built me a monster of a car " to I can't drive this". It's always "we'll have to see what's wrong" . Maybe he is just not that great.
I do'nt rate him personally. He goes from "you've built me a monster of a car " to I can't drive this". It's always "we'll have to see what's wrong" . Maybe he is just not that great.
He layed the foundations to the title in the first seven races - Rubens wasn't a match for him then was he? He's had the typical dip in form we see from every champion elect, but admittedly he needs to return to form in Monza. Noe of the others are stepping up to the plate though are they? Mathematically he's in a better position now than a few races ago.
I don't think Button is over-rated. He was hyped somewhat by the British media and fans because he drove with superb consistency and speed when his car was able to flatter him. He's still an excellent driver when conditions suit him, but he seems to fare worse than others when he's in a slump.
Lately, Barrichello and Raikkonen have stepped up strongly. Vettel is getting his act together after two disastrous races, although his car is now not as strong as it used to be. Hamilton and Alonso are driving the wheel nuts off their cars (literally in Alonso's case), but you'd expect that from WDCs. They've all stepped up, despite the speed of the cars (Brawn, RBR, Williams, Renault, Ferrari, McLaren) being more closely matched than ever before this season.
team underdog said:
Noe of the others are stepping up to the plate though are they? Mathematically he's in a better position now than a few races ago.
He built up his "mathematical" superiority when he possessed a nearly unassailable car (the only times when it was assailable was in the wet against RBR).Lately, Barrichello and Raikkonen have stepped up strongly. Vettel is getting his act together after two disastrous races, although his car is now not as strong as it used to be. Hamilton and Alonso are driving the wheel nuts off their cars (literally in Alonso's case), but you'd expect that from WDCs. They've all stepped up, despite the speed of the cars (Brawn, RBR, Williams, Renault, Ferrari, McLaren) being more closely matched than ever before this season.
Edited by Jungles on Monday 7th September 01:25
I think he is, but he drives so smooth so it doesn't matter - LOL 
As someone else said, he makes excuses whenever he can and goes from 'you built me a monster of a car' to 'what have you done guys this is awful' the week after. And at Spa he commented on his qualifying lap immediately after we saw it onboard with Coulthard commentating on it, but I don't think he realised this. He was saying it was oversteering everywhere etc etc but the lap showed this nowhere except one point which was driver error over a bumpy corner. The rest of the lap was perfectly smooth and didn't tie in with his excuses (or DC's comments) at all. He is just a moaner.
Sure he drove great at the start of the season, but in easily the best car and an underperforming team mate every driver on the F1 grid and the test drivers could have done this, there was nothing special about it. The only evidence is look at where he has been since Silverstone when the first manufacturer caught up to Brawn. Plus he can give no feedback to the team, its all RB's.
Its wrong to say he is crap, he is in F1 of course he is brilliant, but one of the best on the grid or anything special in F1? Not in my opinion.
As someone else said, he makes excuses whenever he can and goes from 'you built me a monster of a car' to 'what have you done guys this is awful' the week after. And at Spa he commented on his qualifying lap immediately after we saw it onboard with Coulthard commentating on it, but I don't think he realised this. He was saying it was oversteering everywhere etc etc but the lap showed this nowhere except one point which was driver error over a bumpy corner. The rest of the lap was perfectly smooth and didn't tie in with his excuses (or DC's comments) at all. He is just a moaner.
Sure he drove great at the start of the season, but in easily the best car and an underperforming team mate every driver on the F1 grid and the test drivers could have done this, there was nothing special about it. The only evidence is look at where he has been since Silverstone when the first manufacturer caught up to Brawn. Plus he can give no feedback to the team, its all RB's.
Its wrong to say he is crap, he is in F1 of course he is brilliant, but one of the best on the grid or anything special in F1? Not in my opinion.
I have been waiting for this thread to come along - the critics were quiet in the first few races weren't they? Whoopee, a lean patch for Button, he must be crap and I was right all along, let's forget about those early-season performances and focus on the negatives eh?
Button has spent years being slagged for being slow and a playboy, so quite how he can be over-rated now is a bit of a mystery.
There's no doubt he demolished the opposition at the start of the season, and did so in the best car, but he demolished his team-mate too and Barri's being touted as better than Button in the arguments above despite winning one race to six, trailing in the points by 18 and qualifying and lapping slower in the majority of races this season.
As for the comments about oversteer - Button drives his car smoothly and if it's oversteering he'll drive it to the limit of the rear tyres. If it's understeering he drives it to the limit of the fronts. There's NEVER been any fuss in the way he drives. It's how it is, and just cos you can't see him sawing at the wheel doesn't mean the car's perfect but he's a moaner and isn't quick. That's a fundamental lack of understanding.
The Brawn has had serious issues with tyre temps in the last few races and that's the reason both cars have been slow. Button's sympathy to his tyres were key to his early successes whilst being detrimental when the car wasn't generating heat in its tyres. So he was a bit faster than his team-mate early in the season and is a bit slower now.
In other words his style has both helped and hindered him during this season depending on the car and its suitability to the track, the weather and the setup. You see the same with all the WDCs on the grid too, in fact all the drivers have stronger and weaker races.
Button reckons he is now being more aggressive in heating his tyres, I don't know about that yet as he's not had a clean getaway for the last couple of races due to minor qualifying mistakes. I'm interested to see how his pace is on a clean first lap now the car's behaviour in heating the tyres is reckoned to be solved. But regardless of that, the last few races are no more an indication of a driver's ability than the first few races were.
Unless you want them to suppport an existing viewpoint of course.
Button has spent years being slagged for being slow and a playboy, so quite how he can be over-rated now is a bit of a mystery.
There's no doubt he demolished the opposition at the start of the season, and did so in the best car, but he demolished his team-mate too and Barri's being touted as better than Button in the arguments above despite winning one race to six, trailing in the points by 18 and qualifying and lapping slower in the majority of races this season.
As for the comments about oversteer - Button drives his car smoothly and if it's oversteering he'll drive it to the limit of the rear tyres. If it's understeering he drives it to the limit of the fronts. There's NEVER been any fuss in the way he drives. It's how it is, and just cos you can't see him sawing at the wheel doesn't mean the car's perfect but he's a moaner and isn't quick. That's a fundamental lack of understanding.
The Brawn has had serious issues with tyre temps in the last few races and that's the reason both cars have been slow. Button's sympathy to his tyres were key to his early successes whilst being detrimental when the car wasn't generating heat in its tyres. So he was a bit faster than his team-mate early in the season and is a bit slower now.
In other words his style has both helped and hindered him during this season depending on the car and its suitability to the track, the weather and the setup. You see the same with all the WDCs on the grid too, in fact all the drivers have stronger and weaker races.
Button reckons he is now being more aggressive in heating his tyres, I don't know about that yet as he's not had a clean getaway for the last couple of races due to minor qualifying mistakes. I'm interested to see how his pace is on a clean first lap now the car's behaviour in heating the tyres is reckoned to be solved. But regardless of that, the last few races are no more an indication of a driver's ability than the first few races were.
Unless you want them to suppport an existing viewpoint of course.
FNG said:
As for the comments about oversteer - Button drives his car smoothly and if it's oversteering he'll drive it to the limit of the rear tyres. If it's understeering he drives it to the limit of the fronts. There's NEVER been any fuss in the way he drives. It's how it is, and just cos you can't see him sawing at the wheel doesn't mean the car's perfect but he's a moaner and isn't quick. That's a fundamental lack of understanding.
The fundamental lack of understanding is from yourself. My point was he makes excuses for things that aren't even there. He was not fast enough and has not been so he says the car was oversteering terribly, yet it was not.matt frost said:
FNG said:
As for the comments about oversteer - Button drives his car smoothly and if it's oversteering he'll drive it to the limit of the rear tyres. If it's understeering he drives it to the limit of the fronts. There's NEVER been any fuss in the way he drives. It's how it is, and just cos you can't see him sawing at the wheel doesn't mean the car's perfect but he's a moaner and isn't quick. That's a fundamental lack of understanding.
The fundamental lack of understanding is from yourself. My point was he makes excuses for things that aren't even there. He was not fast enough and has not been so he says the car was oversteering terribly, yet it was not.matt frost said:
FNG said:
As for the comments about oversteer - Button drives his car smoothly and if it's oversteering he'll drive it to the limit of the rear tyres. If it's understeering he drives it to the limit of the fronts. There's NEVER been any fuss in the way he drives. It's how it is, and just cos you can't see him sawing at the wheel doesn't mean the car's perfect but he's a moaner and isn't quick. That's a fundamental lack of understanding.
The fundamental lack of understanding is from yourself. My point was he makes excuses for things that aren't even there. He was not fast enough and has not been so he says the car was oversteering terribly, yet it was not.Saying "no, I'm not wrong, you are" doesn't move your argument any further up the pecking order.
Edited by FNG on Monday 7th September 10:24
matt frost said:
And at Spa he commented on his qualifying lap immediately after we saw it onboard with Coulthard commentating on it, but I don't think he realised this. He was saying it was oversteering everywhere etc etc but the lap showed this nowhere except one point which was driver error over a bumpy corner.
Plus he can give no feedback to the team, its all RB's.
Contradicted yourself in the same post there fella. Plus he can give no feedback to the team, its all RB's.
Any proof that the feedback is all Barrichellos? Or did your armchair tell you that?
stifler said:
matt frost said:
FNG said:
As for the comments about oversteer - Button drives his car smoothly and if it's oversteering he'll drive it to the limit of the rear tyres. If it's understeering he drives it to the limit of the fronts. There's NEVER been any fuss in the way he drives. It's how it is, and just cos you can't see him sawing at the wheel doesn't mean the car's perfect but he's a moaner and isn't quick. That's a fundamental lack of understanding.
The fundamental lack of understanding is from yourself. My point was he makes excuses for things that aren't even there. He was not fast enough and has not been so he says the car was oversteering terribly, yet it was not.matt frost: If you think he's reporting understeer that doesn't exist cos he can't admit he's slow, sorry but there's no evidence to suggest he's doing this whatsoever. Therefore you are making it up.
Engineers have telemetry that tell them exactly what the car's doing, do you really think a driver could get away with doing this?
FNG said:
stifler said:
matt frost said:
FNG said:
As for the comments about oversteer - Button drives his car smoothly and if it's oversteering he'll drive it to the limit of the rear tyres. If it's understeering he drives it to the limit of the fronts. There's NEVER been any fuss in the way he drives. It's how it is, and just cos you can't see him sawing at the wheel doesn't mean the car's perfect but he's a moaner and isn't quick. That's a fundamental lack of understanding.
The fundamental lack of understanding is from yourself. My point was he makes excuses for things that aren't even there. He was not fast enough and has not been so he says the car was oversteering terribly, yet it was not.matt frost: If you think he's reporting understeer that doesn't exist cos he can't admit he's slow, sorry but there's no evidence to suggest he's doing this whatsoever. Therefore you are making it up.
Engineers have telemetry that tell them exactly what the car's doing, do you really think a driver could get away with doing this?
No Worries.The slip angles on modern racing tyres are so small these days that a miniscule amout of slip at the back or front of the car would feel like a massive slide and completely mess up the balance of the car.
As for the original question...
Any driver who can win a race at a fast track like the Turkish GP with the 10th? fastest speed trap reading in the field and the fastest apex speed by 3 km/h is pretty special. I think it was FourWheelDrift who commented at the time on the official GP thread that Buttons driving was "Pure Class!" in that respect.
FNG said:
stifler said:
matt frost said:
FNG said:
As for the comments about oversteer - Button drives his car smoothly and if it's oversteering he'll drive it to the limit of the rear tyres. If it's understeering he drives it to the limit of the fronts. There's NEVER been any fuss in the way he drives. It's how it is, and just cos you can't see him sawing at the wheel doesn't mean the car's perfect but he's a moaner and isn't quick. That's a fundamental lack of understanding.
The fundamental lack of understanding is from yourself. My point was he makes excuses for things that aren't even there. He was not fast enough and has not been so he says the car was oversteering terribly, yet it was not.matt frost: If you think he's reporting understeer that doesn't exist cos he can't admit he's slow, sorry but there's no evidence to suggest he's doing this whatsoever. Therefore you are making it up.
Engineers have telemetry that tell them exactly what the car's doing, do you really think a driver could get away with doing this?
Edited by SRT77 on Monday 7th September 10:40
Rubens has one big advantage. Jock Clear.
They work very well together, and form an almost complete package.
Bunsen, when he has the car working for him, is on top of the world. It's finding the setup quickly on Friday, if you don't achieve that, you're lost as there's no in-season testing now.
Had testing been allowed, then I reckon he'd be on it at every race, and the championship would be all but won by now, and we'd all be saying "this is boring, how can we spice up the championship".
They work very well together, and form an almost complete package.
Bunsen, when he has the car working for him, is on top of the world. It's finding the setup quickly on Friday, if you don't achieve that, you're lost as there's no in-season testing now.
Had testing been allowed, then I reckon he'd be on it at every race, and the championship would be all but won by now, and we'd all be saying "this is boring, how can we spice up the championship".
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