F1 Engines for 2010?

[MiniMan64]

Busy old day what with Lotus, BMW and Canada but it's got me wondering about the engine situation for next year, especially pending Renault and Toyota's situation in the sport.

So for next year we've got:

Mercedes
McLaren
Brawn
Force India
Red Bull? (if the FIA let them)

Cosworth
Lotus
Manor
Campos
Cosworth
Williams?
BMW/Sauber/Petronas?

Ferrari
Ferrari
Torro Rosso

Now lets say the worst happens and Renault and Toyota drop out adding a few more names to the Cosworth list I would have thought with the new arrivals.

Where does this leave the sport with two major engines suppliers dominating the sport? What about Ferrari on their own? Does this have a postive effect of evening the playing field or a negative effect of creating a monopoly in the sport?

[eLSerbera]

MiniMan64 said:

Busy old day what with Lotus, BMW and Canada but it's got me wondering about the engine situation for next year, especially pending Renault and Toyota's situation in the sport.

So for next year we've got:

Mercedes
McLaren
Brawn
Force India
Red Bull? (if the FIA let them)

Cosworth
Lotus
Manor
Campos
Cosworth
Williams?
BMW/Sauber/Petronas?

Ferrari
Ferrari
Torro Rosso

Now lets say the worst happens and Renault and Toyota drop out adding a few more names to the Cosworth list I would have thought with the new arrivals.

Where does this leave the sport with two major engines suppliers dominating the sport? What about Ferrari on their own? Does this have a postive effect of evening the playing field or a negative effect of creating a monopoly in the sport?

What it does is make it very clear that next year F1 will be the closest its ever been to a spec formula...

But Toyota and Renualt may continue supplying engines even if the team pulls out...

And why aren't BMW trying to find a buyer for the engine division on its own?

And that Cosworth engine better be good and reliable...

[timbob]

I'm not too worried about the engine situation. I think one of the most fondly remembered periods in F1's history was the late 60s and early 70s, with the ubiquitous cosworth dfv powering nearly every car on the grid.

Perhaps with a readily and cheaply available, competitive customer engine there for the new guys to use, I'm hoping the new influx of small engineering based teams (as opposed to factory teams) might put a decent chassis together and shake up the front of the grid, much as brawn have done this year.

I think I read the other day that this will be the first year since 1979 that one of the "big four" teams (ferrari, mclaren, williams and benetton/renault) won't win the constructors title - long may it continue!

[spend]

eLSerbera said:

What it does is make it very clear that next year F1 will be the closest its ever been to a spec formula...
....
And that Cosworth engine better be good and reliable...

It might be a spec, but competitive? New engine supplier with so many teams seems a recipe for disaster, surely the teams aren't so stupid? Maybe one or two teams hoping the engine develops into a monster in a few years - but even those historic traits are blown away by the spec rules however good the builders are I reckon?

It'll be Cosworths fault not SuperMax's, I can guarantee you

[aeropilot]

eLSerbera said:

And why aren't BMW trying to find a buyer for the engine division on its own?

Why would they, it's part of it's M-Sport division and will be put to use doing other things no doubt, if it already hasn't diversified into other BMW engine products?

[jimpritchard]

timbob said:

Perhaps with a readily and cheaply available, competitive customer engine there for the new guys to use, I'm hoping the new influx of small engineering based teams (as opposed to factory teams) might put a decent chassis together and shake up the front of the grid, much as brawn have done this year.

Could you class Brawn as a "non factory team"? Surely all the development work was done under the "Honda" umbrella?

[aeropilot]

timbob said:

I'm hoping the new influx of small engineering based teams (as opposed to factory teams) might put a decent chassis together and shake up the front of the grid, much as brawn have done this year.

I can't see it, with such limited testing still, the new teams will struggle to sort the chassis, and with aero's still such a factor (and the need for a wind tunnel to develop them) I can't them achieving much tbh. And as has been said, without the Honda investment last year I doubt Brawn GP would be where it is today.
Mind you, had Honda stayed in this year anyway it still wouldn't have been where they are today, as they would have been stuck with using the Honda boat anchor rather than the Merc unit

[Nick M]

I understood from a recent article in Autosport that Williams were chasing a Renault engine deal.

Not sure of the precise nature of the Renault engine builders, but does Flavio / Mechachrome / Supertec still have anything to do with it ?

If so, and *if* Renault were to pull out / be excluded from F1, could that company still supply engines I wonder ?

Or could we perhaps see a Renault team withdrawal so they just focus on an engine supply deal for a couple of teams ?

[rdjohn]

[quote=aeropilot)
I can't see it, with such limited testing still, the new teams will struggle to sort the chassis, and with aero's still such a factor (and the need for a wind tunnel to develop them) I can't them achieving much tbh.
[/quote]

Add to that the need to bring in 6, or 8 top drivers and potentially limited cash resources and I think that in a couple of years there might be a need to reintroduce the 107% qualifying rule.

[FourWheelDrift]

MiniMan64 said:

So for next year we've got:

Mercedes
McLaren
Brawn
Force India
Red Bull? (if the FIA let them)

Cosworth
Lotus
Manor
Campos
Cosworth <--------------- Whoops
Williams?
BMW/Sauber/Petronas?

Ferrari
Ferrari
Torro Rosso

That should be USF1.

[Flying Toilet]

Word is McLaren wont have Mercedes power next year.

There is an announcement coming Friday apparently.

Please don't shoot the messenger.

[FourWheelDrift]

Flying Toilet said:

Word is McLaren wont have Mercedes power next year.

There is an announcement coming Friday apparently.

Please don't shoot the messenger.

Well unless they are selling their stake in McLaren that would seem unlikely, unless they are re-badging them as Maybach.

[Flying Toilet]

FourWheelDrift said:

Flying Toilet said:

Word is McLaren wont have Mercedes power next year.

There is an announcement coming Friday apparently.

Please don't shoot the messenger.

Well unless they are selling their stake in McLaren that would seem unlikely, unless they are re-badging them as Maybach.

I am only posting what I was told by somebody in the F1 scene last night.

I cant see it myself personally. More the case that Merc are spreading there backing out...

[Iain328]

Flying Toilet said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Flying Toilet said:

Word is McLaren wont have Mercedes power next year.

There is an announcement coming Friday apparently.

Please don't shoot the messenger.

Well unless they are selling their stake in McLaren that would seem unlikely, unless they are re-badging them as Maybach.

I am only posting what I was told by somebody in the F1 scene last night.

I cant see it myself personally. More the case that Merc are spreading there backing out...

Are not McLaren building their own engine for the MP4 12C road car? Who's to say Ron isn't going to be building F1 engines too - maybe under license from Mercedes?

[thestig84]

Flying Toilet said:

Word is McLaren wont have Mercedes power next year.

There is an announcement coming Friday apparently.

Please don't shoot the messenger.

Well they have an agreement till 2011 and are saying the relationship will change not end.

"The deal has cast doubts about the future of the McLaren and Mercedes relationship, but Daimler boss Dieter Zetsche said that his company was not planning to walk away from the team once their exclusive partnership deal ends after 2011.

"Ending the relationship is not an option but we may have a different relationship," he told AUTOSPORT's sister website autocar.co.uk."

Full story:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78660

[MiniMan64]

I cannot see Merc running away from McLaren, more likely it will just be their expansion into Brawn as well. Think Red Bull and Torro Rosso maybe?

Lets say Renault stay then, Williams are surely a good bet for their engines which leaves Toyota out in the cold doesn't it?

[hot metal]

timbob said:

I'm not too worried about the engine situation. I think one of the most fondly remembered periods in F1's history was the late 60s and early 70s, with the ubiquitous cosworth dfv powering nearly every car on the grid.

Perhaps with a readily and cheaply available, competitive customer engine there for the new guys to use, I'm hoping the new influx of small engineering based teams (as opposed to factory teams) might put a decent chassis together and shake up the front of the grid, much as brawn have done this year.

I think I read the other day that this will be the first year since 1979 that one of the "big four" teams (ferrari, mclaren, williams and benetton/renault) won't win the constructors title - long may it continue!

Ferrari won in 1979 the year before it was Lotus who weren`t exactly small at the time.I you have to go back to Tyrrell in 1973 for the last tiddler team to win.

[stemll]

hot metal said:

timbob said:

I'm not too worried about the engine situation. I think one of the most fondly remembered periods in F1's history was the late 60s and early 70s, with the ubiquitous cosworth dfv powering nearly every car on the grid.

Perhaps with a readily and cheaply available, competitive customer engine there for the new guys to use, I'm hoping the new influx of small engineering based teams (as opposed to factory teams) might put a decent chassis together and shake up the front of the grid, much as brawn have done this year.

I think I read the other day that this will be the first year since 1979 that one of the "big four" teams (ferrari, mclaren, williams and benetton/renault) won't win the constructors title - long may it continue!

Ferrari won in 1979 the year before it was Lotus who weren`t exactly small at the time.I you have to go back to Tyrrell in 1973 for the last tiddler team to win.

Williams won the championship (drivers (Jones) and constructors) in 1980 just one season after their first win (Regazzoni, Silverstone '79) and they were very much a "tiddler" at that time. Also won the contstructors in '81 and the drivers in '82 (Rosberg).

Edited by stemll on Tuesday 15th September 23:20

[Andy M]

Given that McLaren is using its own engine to power the 12C, what chance of them building their own F1 engine?

[M3ax]

While we are at it...... McLaren running with Ferrari engines?