How easy are the current F1 cars to drive?
Discussion
After watching the classic Brazilian GP on the BBC website I noticed just how massive the difference in performance between team mates used to be.
For example Damon Hill in the Williams-Renault qualified 4th with a time of 1:17.554
Ayrton Senna in an identical Williams-Renault qualified on pole with a time of 1:15.962
That's a gap of 1.592 secs between team mates. Even Piquet was far closer to Alonso than this! The only recent time I can think of where a team mate has been this far off was Badoer!
In the same qualifying of the other front runners:
Jos Verstappen was 1.893 secs slower than Michael Schumacher in the Benetton
Gerhard Berger was 1.47 secs slower than Jean Alesi in the Ferrari
In the race Senna lapped Damon before spinning out. You also have to remember Damon Hill was world championship material!
Are the current cars so much easier to drive near the limit that a great driver is no longer able to make such a large difference?
For example Damon Hill in the Williams-Renault qualified 4th with a time of 1:17.554
Ayrton Senna in an identical Williams-Renault qualified on pole with a time of 1:15.962
That's a gap of 1.592 secs between team mates. Even Piquet was far closer to Alonso than this! The only recent time I can think of where a team mate has been this far off was Badoer!
In the same qualifying of the other front runners:
Jos Verstappen was 1.893 secs slower than Michael Schumacher in the Benetton
Gerhard Berger was 1.47 secs slower than Jean Alesi in the Ferrari
In the race Senna lapped Damon before spinning out. You also have to remember Damon Hill was world championship material!
Are the current cars so much easier to drive near the limit that a great driver is no longer able to make such a large difference?
I guess now there is a lot more data collected, telemetry, simulations run using different setups on the computer before the drivers ever sit in the car. From data captured on track both drivers can see graphically and very accurately where the other driver is quicker, where they are braking and their revs/speed at every corner apex.
Back when Hill/Senna, Berger/Alesi raced they had less information and each driver had to get the setup working for them and tracks they were comfortable on. Which is why there were sometimes big gaps. Also depending on the years the technology used was more temperamental, especially the active suspension from what I recall.
Back when Hill/Senna, Berger/Alesi raced they had less information and each driver had to get the setup working for them and tracks they were comfortable on. Which is why there were sometimes big gaps. Also depending on the years the technology used was more temperamental, especially the active suspension from what I recall.
Many years ago I was aquainted with a certain F1 designer who had some experience of racing in his home land.
When doing some testing with the team (at Chobham IIRC) he asked if he could have a drive (I think it was a DFV powered car). The word I heard was that he couldn't keep it on the track ~ even in a straight line. But that info was not from the horses mouth.
When doing some testing with the team (at Chobham IIRC) he asked if he could have a drive (I think it was a DFV powered car). The word I heard was that he couldn't keep it on the track ~ even in a straight line. But that info was not from the horses mouth.
Alfie Noakes said:
Many years ago I was aquainted with a certain F1 designer who had some experience of racing in his home land.
When doing some testing with the team (at Chobham IIRC) he asked if he could have a drive (I think it was a DFV powered car). The word I heard was that he couldn't keep it on the track ~ even in a straight line. But that info was not from the horses mouth.
GM?When doing some testing with the team (at Chobham IIRC) he asked if he could have a drive (I think it was a DFV powered car). The word I heard was that he couldn't keep it on the track ~ even in a straight line. But that info was not from the horses mouth.
Project 644 said:
Alfie Noakes said:
Many years ago I was aquainted with a certain F1 designer who had some experience of racing in his home land.
When doing some testing with the team (at Chobham IIRC) he asked if he could have a drive (I think it was a DFV powered car). The word I heard was that he couldn't keep it on the track ~ even in a straight line. But that info was not from the horses mouth.
GM?When doing some testing with the team (at Chobham IIRC) he asked if he could have a drive (I think it was a DFV powered car). The word I heard was that he couldn't keep it on the track ~ even in a straight line. But that info was not from the horses mouth.
I was impressed.
Get Karter said:
Project 644 said:
Alfie Noakes said:
Many years ago I was aquainted with a certain F1 designer who had some experience of racing in his home land.
When doing some testing with the team (at Chobham IIRC) he asked if he could have a drive (I think it was a DFV powered car). The word I heard was that he couldn't keep it on the track ~ even in a straight line. But that info was not from the horses mouth.
GM?When doing some testing with the team (at Chobham IIRC) he asked if he could have a drive (I think it was a DFV powered car). The word I heard was that he couldn't keep it on the track ~ even in a straight line. But that info was not from the horses mouth.
I was impressed.
Get Karter said:
Definitely the drivers who are better, and not that the task is any easier....
(If we use the same logic as the hugely impressive year-on-year improvements in exam results at British schools demonstrating that young people are getting cleverer and cleverer.)
The worst part is, the exams are getting easier, and the grades aren't getting higher...(If we use the same logic as the hugely impressive year-on-year improvements in exam results at British schools demonstrating that young people are getting cleverer and cleverer.)
This country is going to be royally f
ked in a decade or two.
Telemetry certainly has something to do with it. I know one current F1 team who (in a slightly more sophisticated way) give the #2 driver their #1 driver's telemetry print out to show him where he can improve his lap as anything more complex is a waste of time really! They can see where the driver is on the throttle, where they're on the brakes and hundreds of other variables they can compare which help the slower driver get closer to their team mate.
jamiebae said:
Telemetry certainly has something to do with it. I know one current F1 team who (in a slightly more sophisticated way) give the #2 driver their #1 driver's telemetry print out to show him where he can improve his lap as anything more complex is a waste of time really! They can see where the driver is on the throttle, where they're on the brakes and hundreds of other variables they can compare which help the slower driver get closer to their team mate.
I think every driver sees his teammates telemetry. Not only that, the team specifically point out where the said team mate is faster via radio communication when preparing for a hot lap etc.FourWheelDrift said:
peterh2 said:
jamiebae said:
Telemetry certainly has something to do with it.
This was 1994. Did they really not have decent telemetry in F1 in 1994?!?
I dont know about current F1 cars however i have experience of driving two F1 cars from many years ago - the ex Graham Hill BRM P578 1962 championship winning car & an ex Nigel Mansell JPS Lotus 92.
Chassis number 5 to be exact. Sad that i know that isnt it?
The Lotus was fairly easy to drive - fast & handled well around the Silverstone GP circuit - the original circuit with the proper Becketts corner & where the track came from under the bridge & into the Woodcote chicane - whilst the BRM was a lot more difficult.
The BRM had a lot less power, obviously, & the cockpit was very cramped in comparison with the Lotus.
I remember the thrill when i drove the Lotus along the pitlane at Silverstone followed by the unbridled joy when i hit the throttle as i left joined the track.
It was an awesome feeling to be to be let loose on the GP circuit in a pucca F1 car.
I wasnt particularly quick in the Lotus, or in the BRM for that matter, however i only spun the Lotus once & i didnt hit anything apaprt from the grass out at Becketts.
I was smiling for weeks afterwards at the thought that i had 'done' Silverstone in a JPS Lotus.
The BRM was an altogether different experience. For a start it was far more valuable than the Lotus, it was slower, harder to drive & the thought of having any kind of accident in it filled me with dread.
Again, i was let loose on the Silverstone GP circuit although i didnt enjoy the experience as much as i did when driving the Lotus.
Quite how the F1 drivers of the 60's did it week after week is beyond me. I am happy to have done it as i wouldnt be able to drive one now - too fat to fit!!!
Happy days....
Chassis number 5 to be exact. Sad that i know that isnt it?
The Lotus was fairly easy to drive - fast & handled well around the Silverstone GP circuit - the original circuit with the proper Becketts corner & where the track came from under the bridge & into the Woodcote chicane - whilst the BRM was a lot more difficult.
The BRM had a lot less power, obviously, & the cockpit was very cramped in comparison with the Lotus.
I remember the thrill when i drove the Lotus along the pitlane at Silverstone followed by the unbridled joy when i hit the throttle as i left joined the track.
It was an awesome feeling to be to be let loose on the GP circuit in a pucca F1 car.
I wasnt particularly quick in the Lotus, or in the BRM for that matter, however i only spun the Lotus once & i didnt hit anything apaprt from the grass out at Becketts.
I was smiling for weeks afterwards at the thought that i had 'done' Silverstone in a JPS Lotus.
The BRM was an altogether different experience. For a start it was far more valuable than the Lotus, it was slower, harder to drive & the thought of having any kind of accident in it filled me with dread.
Again, i was let loose on the Silverstone GP circuit although i didnt enjoy the experience as much as i did when driving the Lotus.
Quite how the F1 drivers of the 60's did it week after week is beyond me. I am happy to have done it as i wouldnt be able to drive one now - too fat to fit!!!
Happy days....
driving an F1 car is different from driving an F1 car as fast as it will go 
I wouldn't be surprised if older F1 cars were a bit easier to drive at the limit of their grip (i.e. more progressive in their loss of grip as the tyre slip angle increases). The narrow track, grooved tyre generation F1 cars were notorious for gripping and gripping right up to the limit where they would suddenly let go. Perhaps the move back to slicks has helped to some extent with this... I don't know.
I wouldn't be surprised if older F1 cars were a bit easier to drive at the limit of their grip (i.e. more progressive in their loss of grip as the tyre slip angle increases). The narrow track, grooved tyre generation F1 cars were notorious for gripping and gripping right up to the limit where they would suddenly let go. Perhaps the move back to slicks has helped to some extent with this... I don't know.
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