The Brawn GP car - why did it work ?
Discussion
OK , time for a wash up. As I understood it Formula one cars these days are designed at early stages with the engine in mind , basically the undertray , exhaust , suspension and all the ancillaries have to be incorporated in the design with the engine and gearbox dictating things , so how was it that a Honda car built with the Honda power unit in mind was able to be so succesfully adapted in such a limited time frame with the Mercedes power unit and who were the engineers ?, lets face it last years Honda F1 car was a disaster and I don't recall a Newey type character being involved so just how did it all go right ? Usually when a new power unit is used in an F1 car it takes at least half a season to get it right and resolve any reliability issues that can occur , especially with limited testing. McLaren got their car drastically wrong , Ferrari were never a real threat , was it just that all the others got it completely wrong and Brawn & Red Bull stole an unassailable lead then in the last part of the season the usual McLaren/Ferrari cars turned it around , just far too late in the day ?
They started developing early yes, but they were also lucky..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2009/10/th...
I think the car would actually have probably been better with the Honda unit as it would have been less compromised. Also impressive they got through the season with only 3 chassis too
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2009/10/th...
I think the car would actually have probably been better with the Honda unit as it would have been less compromised. Also impressive they got through the season with only 3 chassis too
It was obvious at the beginning of the season that Brawn had a huge advantage with that car compared to the others. How else could such a mediocre driver as JB achieve so much so early on. That Brawn car had the kind of advantage that Lotus had when it introduced the rear engine, or the Williams car that gave Ayrton Senna such a hard time in the hands of Mansell.
Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
Thankyou Merry , this is exactly what I'm getting at ;
"It was designed for a Honda engine, and it was not until December that the team knew they would be using a Mercedes. That necessitated some pretty crude changes.
"The chassis had the back six inches cut off to fit the engine in - the sort of thing you wouldn't normally do even with a test car," says my source. "And the gearbox was in the wrong place because the crank-centre height is different. There's a massive amount of compromise in the cars."
Those compromises introduced a significant performance deficit into the Brawn car, but it raced like that all year".
Yes they used most of 2008 to come up with the car but NOT with the different power unit and adaptions , this car should NOT have been competitive , which just makes it all the more remarkable IMO.
"It was designed for a Honda engine, and it was not until December that the team knew they would be using a Mercedes. That necessitated some pretty crude changes.
"The chassis had the back six inches cut off to fit the engine in - the sort of thing you wouldn't normally do even with a test car," says my source. "And the gearbox was in the wrong place because the crank-centre height is different. There's a massive amount of compromise in the cars."
Those compromises introduced a significant performance deficit into the Brawn car, but it raced like that all year".
Yes they used most of 2008 to come up with the car but NOT with the different power unit and adaptions , this car should NOT have been competitive , which just makes it all the more remarkable IMO.
exitwound said:
It was obvious at the beginning of the season that Brawn had a huge advantage with that car compared to the others. How else could such a mediocre driver as JB achieve so much so early on. ... ... For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
Pistonheads, the place for informed discussion, eh? Edited by RichB on Tuesday 20th October 20:18
Merry said:
They started developing early yes, but they were also lucky..
Just a bit. From what I hear, had they had an early crash, they wouldn't have had enough parts to put that car back together.Then of course there was the fact that they effectively had a second team working on their 2009 car as well...
exitwound said:
It was obvious at the beginning of the season that Brawn had a huge advantage with that car compared to the others. How else could such a mediocre driver as JB achieve so much so early on. That Brawn car had the kind of advantage that Lotus had when it introduced the rear engine, or the Williams car that gave Ayrton Senna such a hard time in the hands of Mansell.
Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
It is always surprising that JB's record in the lower formulae, for instance, has been ignored in all of this discussion of his "mediocrity". Let's not forget, also, Ross Brawn's comment that there is nothing more that JB could have done; that his performances had been exemplary. This is a man whose benchmark is Schumacher, not some "mediocre" journeyman.Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
skwdenyer said:
exitwound said:
It was obvious at the beginning of the season that Brawn had a huge advantage with that car compared to the others. How else could such a mediocre driver as JB achieve so much so early on. That Brawn car had the kind of advantage that Lotus had when it introduced the rear engine, or the Williams car that gave Ayrton Senna such a hard time in the hands of Mansell.
Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
It is always surprising that JB's record in the lower formulae, for instance, has been ignored in all of this discussion of his "mediocrity". Let's not forget, also, Ross Brawn's comment that there is nothing more that JB could have done; that his performances had been exemplary. This is a man whose benchmark is Schumacher, not some "mediocre" journeyman.Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
How curious...exitwound said:
It was obvious at the beginning of the season that Brawn had a huge advantage with that car compared to the others. How else could such a mediocre driver as JB achieve so much so early on. That Brawn car had the kind of advantage that Lotus had when it introduced the rear engine, or the Williams car that gave Ayrton Senna such a hard time in the hands of Mansell.
Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
Whilst the car was obviously comprimised slightly from changing the engine late on it did have some key strengths.
1) It was designed from the start to work with the rear diffuser whereas most teams simply bolted this on. With the testing ban I'm still not convinced other teams are getting the best out of the whole diffuser package yet.
2) The Mercedes engine was clearly the most powerful.
1) It was designed from the start to work with the rear diffuser whereas most teams simply bolted this on. With the testing ban I'm still not convinced other teams are getting the best out of the whole diffuser package yet.
2) The Mercedes engine was clearly the most powerful.
skwdenyer said:
exitwound said:
It was obvious at the beginning of the season that Brawn had a huge advantage with that car compared to the others. How else could such a mediocre driver as JB achieve so much so early on. That Brawn car had the kind of advantage that Lotus had when it introduced the rear engine, or the Williams car that gave Ayrton Senna such a hard time in the hands of Mansell.
Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
It is always surprising that JB's record in the lower formulae, for instance, has been ignored in all of this discussion of his "mediocrity". Let's not forget, also, Ross Brawn's comment that there is nothing more that JB could have done; that his performances had been exemplary. This is a man whose benchmark is Schumacher, not some "mediocre" journeyman.Next season, Brawn will be really up against it, and will require a driver who can cut it, and that's not JB i'm afraid. I notice that JB has yet to sign a contract for next year and has produced several fawning statements to the effect that he would like to stay with Brawn, but I doubt he has the skill to take on the improved cars next year. For Brawn to stay on top in the face of the more equal competition, they will need the likes of Massa, Raikonnen or Barichello.
I predict real fireworks next year!
Steve
RedexR said:
Thankyou Merry , this is exactly what I'm getting at ;
"It was designed for a Honda engine, and it was not until December that the team knew they would be using a Mercedes. That necessitated some pretty crude changes.
"The chassis had the back six inches cut off to fit the engine in - the sort of thing you wouldn't normally do even with a test car," says my source. "And the gearbox was in the wrong place because the crank-centre height is different. There's a massive amount of compromise in the cars."
Those compromises introduced a significant performance deficit into the Brawn car, but it raced like that all year".
Yes they used most of 2008 to come up with the car but NOT with the different power unit and adaptions , this car should NOT have been competitive , which just makes it all the more remarkable IMO.
Crude changes ~ I do not think so."It was designed for a Honda engine, and it was not until December that the team knew they would be using a Mercedes. That necessitated some pretty crude changes.
"The chassis had the back six inches cut off to fit the engine in - the sort of thing you wouldn't normally do even with a test car," says my source. "And the gearbox was in the wrong place because the crank-centre height is different. There's a massive amount of compromise in the cars."
Those compromises introduced a significant performance deficit into the Brawn car, but it raced like that all year".
Yes they used most of 2008 to come up with the car but NOT with the different power unit and adaptions , this car should NOT have been competitive , which just makes it all the more remarkable IMO.
I think your informant has misled you. The engineering facilities availble nowadays are far superior to what was available only say ten years ago. To adapt an engine to a car, or a car to an engine would not be such a major engineering task now given modern facilities available to even the less financially flush teams. Motivating a demotivated remnant F1 team after their employer, the Honda Motor company made that announcement to withdraw, would be a far more onerous task to this observer. Ross Brawn was the man to get that motivation going and that can make all the difference. Looks like it did.... I had a hunch it would and back in early March, put my money where my mouth is.
Those PHers who insist on underestimating the part played by the 2009 World F1 Drivers Champion puzzle me... is it an Anti-Brit thing so prevalent on this so called car enthusiasts' site and elsewhere .... Sure he could not have done it without the car... something both Prost and Senna could never do either.... not to mention Herr Schumacher M. who not only had access to the best cars, had no less a back up by the name of Ross Brawn...
...
.... Only in the UK...Back in 1989, a certain Brit driving a red Italian car won the Brasilian GP ~ a great race to observe. The first win for the red cars in yonks of lean unsuccessful years. That man was given the nick name Il Leone by the Italian enthusiasts ... and for good reason. Back home, Brits put the likes of Prost and Senna on a higher pedestal whilst talking down the talents of Nigel Mansell ...
What is it with so many modern misery Brits and their negativity .... please celebrate British success ... jenson did ... WE, repeat we are the Champions .... it doesn't happen all that often....
......
Only in the UK...
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