Schumacher complaining about Senna's "unfair" driving style.

[Fortitude]

Just seen this on You Tube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6o7NNlTw_Y&fea...

Oh, the irony of it all!!!

Schumacher Hill Crash at Adelaide 1994

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr00HlaK-L0


Schumacher - Villaneuve Battle Crash @ Jerez 97

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB3_UUyzEZQ


Hakkinen V Schumacher 1990

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nWQm8lL_Bo&fea...

Read some of the comments on You Tube;

"crunchbang85 (2 months ago)
I have heard that Michael did apologize to Mika what happend and said to mika that he didn't see him in the mirrors.

Mika believed him when they were face to face speaking, but mika spotted a tv program where he saw michael explaining what happend and that micheal moved to the right but didn't say that he lifted the accelerator and for that actually slowed his pace and they collided. So mika remembers clearly that Michael lied to him when face to face and on purpously did that move..."


M.Schumacher & Coulthard crash in Belgium 98

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeAuQ2Xem4Q


'Three wheels on his wagon Schumacher' goes storming in the McLaren garage, to aggressively confront Coulthard.

[AWRacing]

Yawn...

[E30M3SE]

1992................ at the beginning of his F1 career, maybe this is where he thought, when in Rome, do as the Romans.

Taught a lesson by one of the greats.

[zac510]

Modern drivers are always willing to jump on the moral high ground at any opportunity that suits them.

Just like appealing for a free kick in football whether you were disadvantaged or not, isn't it?

[Fortitude]

AWRacing said:

Yawn...

http://www.srgtc.org.uk/

Yawn?

[Fortitude]

E30M3SE said:

1992................ at the beginning of his F1 career, maybe this is where he thought, when in Rome, do as the Romans.

Taught a lesson by one of the greats.

Could be? What about 1990 though with Hakkinen?

[AWRacing]

Fortitude said:

AWRacing said:

Yawn...

http://www.srgtc.org.uk/

Yawn?

Huh??

[fatboy69]

pot calling the kettle or what? the main difference between senna & schumacher is one word (hope i can get away with it on here so here goes). c h e a t.

senna might have had some dubious driving tactics at times however i dont recall any of his cars being considered illegal during the championship winning years or now. as is the case with schumacher.

no doubt i'll get crucified for this but what the hell. senna was a far better race driver than schumacher ever was or could possible hope to be.

he might have won 7 titles but i would guess that most race fans would have rather paid to watch senna rather than schumacher.

i'll now sit back & wait for the abuse that i will no doubt get from schumachers 2 fans in the uk.....

in my opinion!

[anonymous-user]

fatboy69 said:

pot calling the kettle or what? the main difference between senna & schumacher is one word (hope i can get away with it on here so here goes). c h e a t.

senna might have had some dubious driving tactics at times however i dont recall any of his cars being considered illegal during the championship winning years or now. as is the case with schumacher.

no doubt i'll get crucified for this but what the hell. senna was a far better race driver than schumacher ever was or could possible hope to be.

he might have won 7 titles but i would guess that most race fans would have rather paid to watch senna rather than schumacher.

i'll now sit back & wait for the abuse that i will no doubt get from schumachers 2 fans in the uk.....

in my opinion!

schumacher can hardly be blamed for having an illegal car? surely thats more the remit of the team? its like blaming lewis hamilton for the spygate fiasco!....

senna was a better driver but i dont think there was much in it, no one can deny however, that on those occassions where schumacher needed a few seconds to pull off some ninja pit stop strategy and smashed in some awesome lap times, they were watching something pretty special.

[flemke]

pablo said:

fatboy69 said:

pot calling the kettle or what? the main difference between senna & schumacher is one word (hope i can get away with it on here so here goes). c h e a t.

senna might have had some dubious driving tactics at times however i dont recall any of his cars being considered illegal during the championship winning years or now. as is the case with schumacher.

no doubt i'll get crucified for this but what the hell. senna was a far better race driver than schumacher ever was or could possible hope to be.

he might have won 7 titles but i would guess that most race fans would have rather paid to watch senna rather than schumacher.

i'll now sit back & wait for the abuse that i will no doubt get from schumachers 2 fans in the uk.....

in my opinion!

schumacher can hardly be blamed for having an illegal car? surely thats more the remit of the team? its like blaming lewis hamilton for the spygate fiasco!....

That's true, although I don't believe that Senna ever deliberately parked his car at a hairpin bend to make it impossible for anyone else to set a fast lap in the last two minutes of qualifying.

[Fortitude]

flemke said:

That's true, although I don't believe that Senna ever deliberately parked his car at a hairpin bend to make it impossible for anyone else to set a fast lap in the last two minutes of qualifying.

Two clips from You Tube, with the titles;


Schumacher cheating in monaco qualifying 2006

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jcHrHUJdu0


F1 2006 Monaco Qualifying M.Schumacher Parking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkWcO_e-iO0

[fatboy69]

pablo - think back to the benetton that schumacher was driving which was clearly fitted with launch control even though it was outlawed at the time.

do you honestly believe that schumacher was not aware of this software being installed when he was driving the car? of course he knew it was there. just like when the benetton was running with the illegal plank (& i'm not talking about johnathan ledgard either!!).

he cheated damon out the title, he tried the same with jacques (did i enjoy watching him cock that one up!) & he cheated at monaco when he parked his car on the racing line.

senna might have taken prost off in japan but that wasnt cheating - he had made it quite clear before the start of the race that either he would be ahead of prost (his sworn enemy at the time) or they would both be off the track.

that is was happened so you cant call it cheating.

i dont ever remember anyone accusing senna of either cheating or driving an illegal car. do you?

[ZeeTacoe]

fatboy69 said:

he cheated damon out the title, he tried the same with jacques (did i enjoy watching him cock that one up!) & he cheated at monaco when he parked his car on the racing line.

"a-ha. There is my main rival going really slowly for some reason. I know , I'll drive right into him, he won't expect that"

-D.Hill 1994

[fatboy69]

forgot about this one - the illegal refuelling rig that benetton used in (i think) the 1993 season when the safety filter was removed thereby giving schumacher a pit stop that was 3 seconds quicker than anyone else could do.

it's titled 'schumacher uses illegal fuel rig to pass senna in pitstop'. note the 'pass senna in pitstop'. thats because he couldnt do it on the race track.

another example of schumacher cheating. & i dont buy the argument that he didnt know anything about it.

cheating. pure & simple.

also dont forget the 'red flag' incident in hungary in 2006. the one where he claimed he didnt see the red flag. everyone else did.

or the silverstone incident where he overtook damon on the warm up (strictly forbidden) & he then simply ignored the black flag that he was shown.

how many more i wonder? think i'll go back to you tube & see how many more examples of his cheating are on there. & then i'll do the same for the great senna & see how cheating incidents i can find.

[mattikake]

pablo said:

no one can deny however, that on those occassions where schumacher needed a few seconds to pull off some ninja pit stop strategy and smashed in some awesome lap times, they were watching something pretty special.

You never saw this from Senna (effectively driving qualifying laps in the middle of a race) because the racing of the time never required him to.

There was very little requirement to do exactly this in Senna's era, however I do remember seeing a requirement for it once, but not by Senna, by Mansell at Monaco 1992. He put in several near-pole-time qaulifying laps to catch Senna right at the end of the race... The point being, I expect most good drivers were capable of this 'feat'.

So anyway, the lack of that measurable reality does necessarily not make Schumacher great... and this year we have also seen this from Button, when it was required and nicely for us all to see - against the same team mate - and not too surprisingly, with very similar results!

[EDLT]

fatboy69 said:

senna might have taken prost off in japan but that wasnt cheating - he had made it quite clear before the start of the race that either he would be ahead of prost (his sworn enemy at the time) or they would both be off the track.

that is was happened so you cant call it cheating.

i dont ever remember anyone accusing senna of either cheating or driving an illegal car. do you?

So if Schumacher said he was going to run an illegal car all season it wouldn't be cheating?

[flemke]

EDLT said:

fatboy69 said:

senna might have taken prost off in japan but that wasnt cheating - he had made it quite clear before the start of the race that either he would be ahead of prost (his sworn enemy at the time) or they would both be off the track.

that is was happened so you cant call it cheating.

i dont ever remember anyone accusing senna of either cheating or driving an illegal car. do you?

So if Schumacher said he was going to run an illegal car all season it wouldn't be cheating?

Without wanting to put words into FB69's mouth, I think his point was not that Schumacher's ramming Hill was cheating, but rather that it was dishonourable, whereas Senna performed the same act but had at least given Prost fair warning.
I'm no defender of Senna's act, but it was not as low as Schumacher's, and that is before we get into the fact that Senna later admitted his volition, whereas Schumacher continued implausibly to protest his innocence.

[Le TVR]

flemke said:

whereas Senna performed the same act but had at least given Prost fair warning.

That 'act' should really be plural.

Prost had had fair warning since the first time they raced together in a Merc touring cars race. Prost qualified on pole in front of Senna. Senna then pushed him straight off the track on lap one IIRC....

[Derek Smith]

Le TVR said:

flemke said:

whereas Senna performed the same act but had at least given Prost fair warning.

That 'act' should really be plural.

Prost had had fair warning since the first time they raced together in a Merc touring cars race. Prost qualified on pole in front of Senna. Senna then pushed him straight off the track on lap one IIRC....

I've looked at the Japanese start a number of times. Much as I admired Senna for his driving, that gambit put me off him. When he died there was much written about him and, for an F1 fanzine site I was running at the time, I did a step by step analysis of it.

I took into consideration the fact that Prost must have known (let's face it, even I knew) Senna would pull some stunt at the beginning, and if that didn't come off, later in the race, so you would have thought that he should have been prepared for it. I discussed it with the nearest thing to a racing driver I could find - karts and hillclimbs in much modded MGs, ex track MGB. The conclusion we came to, well him really, but I agrred, was that whilst it was dirty driving by Senna it was not quite as bad as most (including me) thought at the time.

I won't go into the inns and outs of the conclusion but iin brief:

Senna had made his mind up to be first into the corner,

Prost must have known that this was a probable,

Prost should have blocked Senna's route as soon as he could,

Prost left a bit of a gap,

Senna went for it,

Prost - in an unaccustomed bit of agressive driving - left braking for as long as he could,

Senna left braking until after Prost,

Senna might have felt that Prost would back off and allow him the corner as Prost had it all to lose,

Whilst there was no real excuse for Senna's banzi attack on the corner, Prost must have known he was there and should have allowed him room as any collision meant the end of his championship,

Senna would not have had an exit from the corner at that speed and on that line and Prost would probably have been able to repass him (there was some discussion as to whether Senna would have stayed on track but no conclusion),

Senna probably would have collided with (driven into) Prost at some time during the race but there was every possibility of him doing it in a manner where there was no excuses and he might well have been penalised points, allowing Prost the title.

The conclusion could, of course, be wrong but we came to it after close, almost frame-by-frame analysis. We both had our minds changed over the incident to an extent so it wasn't a case of prejudice although I accept Senna's death might have made us more open to evidence. The other chap was a bit of a Prost fan but was far from uncritical of his driving in general. I was a Senna fan to an extent but felt betrayed.

There was no doubt, either before we looked at the incident, after it, that Senna was well out of order. It was dangerous and Senna obviously did not want to settle the matter on circuit. By his driving it seemed to me that he was acknowledging Prost as the better driver.

A blot on his career.

I felt that Prost deserved the WDC that year. However, there is little doubt that the stewards looked for an excuse to penalise Senna at the next Japanese GP and award Prost the WDC so in the end justice was, perhaps, done. A great drive by Senna the second year after the collision. However, the thought that went through my mind when he was penalised was: serves you right.

[E30M3SE]

Fortitude said:

E30M3SE said:

1992................ at the beginning of his F1 career, maybe this is where he thought, when in Rome, do as the Romans.

Taught a lesson by one of the greats.

Could be? What about 1990 though with Hakkinen?

His F1 debut was in Belgium 1991.

What is the significance of Hakkinen in 1990?