More vids - Senna defensive driving
Discussion
Currently in the top 10 favourited and discussed in Brazil! 
For those who care: http://www.youtube.com/user/f1educator#p/a/f/0/1um...
For those who care: http://www.youtube.com/user/f1educator#p/a/f/0/1um...
pablo said:
at 0:47 alboreto was nowhere near taking the corner, half of those "moves" are just the guy behind having a look (01:58) and not actually committing to a move. you really need to get yourself into a racing car/kart and see what actually happens on a race cicruit.
+1was nothing too bad at all there, was just racing
I'm confused is this supposed to be a hatchet job on Senna's reputation, or irony? By today's standards, it's more of a snow job, & advert for Senna. Never was a fan but tbh, this shows more of him at his best! I gave up on it, after "The Weave" 5mins in, when there was a little of the Senna I disliked, but up till then I was left thinking, I wish he'd been lived to race on! There seemed to be loads of clips here that show nothing but hard, fair racing to me.
OP
OP
GreenV8S said:
Northern Munkee said:
There seemed to be loads of clips here that show nothing but hard, fair racing to me.
Bit of an own goal by the person who made the video, I think.If you look closely it has his name in it.
42 seconds onwards bottom right
Edited by odyssey2200 on Saturday 7th November 15:22
GreenV8S said:
Northern Munkee said:
There seemed to be loads of clips here that show nothing but hard, fair racing to me.
Bit of an own goal by the person who made the video, I think.
It's not supposed pro or con Senna, certainly no attempt to put him in a bad light - that's for the people watching it to judge. I was just showing what there was to show, as there was a lot of this stuff caught on camera.It even says at the start of the vid "Hard but fair?".
btw, I am also aware of what racing is and re: the Alboreto clips at Jerez '87 were to use the commentary of Murray saying that Senna was "shutting the door" to demo what "shutting the door" is. Would've been a bit odd to use a the same bit of commentary for an attempt by another driver! lol
stemll said:
With the exception of the "weave" section, very little there that isn't hard but fair racing. After all, it's up to the guy behind to make the pass.
For me the Weave is an acceptable tactic as long as the guy is not already alongside, at which point it can become a less-gentlemanly Squeeze. And for those who think that Prost was not initially in the same vein as Senna when it came to defending the lead, you will see plenty of weaving going on here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzyNJWXwBlII think Prost only fully changed his attitude after the Pironi crash.
I'm sorry I thought you edited it and added the graphics, the first one of your propositions, "Ungentlemanly?". Is a very negative proposition. You could have posted a hundred descriptive words for Senna, before you got to "Ungentlemanly?" So that was your choice, your opinion, unless it's an expert quote which you didn't reference so as a viewer I assume that is your opinion. Although on his day Suzuka 2 comes to mind, he could be. Indeed watching it again, I can remember watching some of those moves on "Our Nige" and remembering shouting at the TV at the time, 0.13min especially.
"Aggressive?". Yes and?. Although there's nothing wrong with that move on Prost into the Hockenheim chicane 0.19.
"Hard but fair?" 0.27 Spa with Mansell, you miss the bit that again if memory serves had me shouting at the TV again, so you miss your point (?) we need the run up the Kemmel. Although moving across the track on the Kemmel, more than once, to block a car coming on in the slipstream move, is fair game, at least watching any Spa GP for the last XXyears.
And begins your deconstruction of his driving, and next proposition "The Chop... Shutting the door", beginning with a shot of that Alboreto move, which Murray calls all wrong... Alboreto might be showing his nose, but looks to have zero intention of trying to pass, even though Murray is already too far into his wrong colourful metaphor. Next Suzuka perfectly fair turning in on the racing line. Next Portugal? Half hearted attempt by Patrese (?), and Senna leaves him room to get around the corner without forcing him to resort to the grass. Next Silverstone, nothing going on at all! Alesi another showing nose, marginally more convincing attempt at an overtake, but his pulled out of it in plenty of time.
1.25 Patrese looks like he almost bottles a move, although I don't blame him, possibly because of Senna's reputation. Finally something approaching your proposition at Kyalami, Patrese again, who Senna possibly now feeling comfortable enough to bully him out of anything approaching 50/50. Onboard section, he's ahead it's up to the guy's to pass cleanly, admittedly he appears to be turning in regardless, but as someone who mounts onboard cameras for karting and cars, we can't see where he is in relation to our car whether he's ahead by a full car or there's an overlap, the lens doesn't help, so when he flashes back into shot, at speeds, we are not familiarly with how do we know it's a chop, or our car has realised he's not far enough through to carry the move and deployed his amazingly effective carbon brakes, and lost front aero, across the dirty inside of the track, and see Senna fire across the nose and off into the distance. Even the Stowe corner 1.53, if you advance slowly it's clear as Senna's right front wheel barely leaves shot that our driver is never going to get enough of an overlap to carry the move, what with Senna's uncompromising approach.
I could go on. But they are only my opinions.
Point is. My view, and it's only a view, is that yes Senna wasn't below cheating, bullying and trusting to god and turning in regardless. Robbing our Nigel! Not that he was a saint. But If the intention was to show a negative slant you've failed! Although it does remind me of my hazy memories of what I didn't like, especially as he was a genius and didn't need to drive that way.
You posted this video, then posted it into a topic on here, you could have just posted a montage video clips of Senna, without your comments, and we might have enjoyed it, or we may have made up our own minds, but you put yourself into this video, didn't you? Put your name on it. Which is a little odd as it's all copyright to someone else and asked us to admire your handiwork, and marvel at your critique of his technique. Or were you being provocative?
And yes I'm bored, I have nothing else to do as the rugby is boring, and there's a pile of ironing to do, thats not doing itself...
And most of all your musical taste is offensive. Belgian electronic um-pah music! And as a rant I haven't sworn once.
"Aggressive?". Yes and?. Although there's nothing wrong with that move on Prost into the Hockenheim chicane 0.19.
"Hard but fair?" 0.27 Spa with Mansell, you miss the bit that again if memory serves had me shouting at the TV again, so you miss your point (?) we need the run up the Kemmel. Although moving across the track on the Kemmel, more than once, to block a car coming on in the slipstream move, is fair game, at least watching any Spa GP for the last XXyears.
And begins your deconstruction of his driving, and next proposition "The Chop... Shutting the door", beginning with a shot of that Alboreto move, which Murray calls all wrong... Alboreto might be showing his nose, but looks to have zero intention of trying to pass, even though Murray is already too far into his wrong colourful metaphor. Next Suzuka perfectly fair turning in on the racing line. Next Portugal? Half hearted attempt by Patrese (?), and Senna leaves him room to get around the corner without forcing him to resort to the grass. Next Silverstone, nothing going on at all! Alesi another showing nose, marginally more convincing attempt at an overtake, but his pulled out of it in plenty of time.
1.25 Patrese looks like he almost bottles a move, although I don't blame him, possibly because of Senna's reputation. Finally something approaching your proposition at Kyalami, Patrese again, who Senna possibly now feeling comfortable enough to bully him out of anything approaching 50/50. Onboard section, he's ahead it's up to the guy's to pass cleanly, admittedly he appears to be turning in regardless, but as someone who mounts onboard cameras for karting and cars, we can't see where he is in relation to our car whether he's ahead by a full car or there's an overlap, the lens doesn't help, so when he flashes back into shot, at speeds, we are not familiarly with how do we know it's a chop, or our car has realised he's not far enough through to carry the move and deployed his amazingly effective carbon brakes, and lost front aero, across the dirty inside of the track, and see Senna fire across the nose and off into the distance. Even the Stowe corner 1.53, if you advance slowly it's clear as Senna's right front wheel barely leaves shot that our driver is never going to get enough of an overlap to carry the move, what with Senna's uncompromising approach.
I could go on. But they are only my opinions.
Point is. My view, and it's only a view, is that yes Senna wasn't below cheating, bullying and trusting to god and turning in regardless. Robbing our Nigel! Not that he was a saint. But If the intention was to show a negative slant you've failed! Although it does remind me of my hazy memories of what I didn't like, especially as he was a genius and didn't need to drive that way.
You posted this video, then posted it into a topic on here, you could have just posted a montage video clips of Senna, without your comments, and we might have enjoyed it, or we may have made up our own minds, but you put yourself into this video, didn't you? Put your name on it. Which is a little odd as it's all copyright to someone else and asked us to admire your handiwork, and marvel at your critique of his technique. Or were you being provocative?
And yes I'm bored, I have nothing else to do as the rugby is boring, and there's a pile of ironing to do, thats not doing itself...
And most of all your musical taste is offensive. Belgian electronic um-pah music! And as a rant I haven't sworn once.
Edited by Northern Munkee on Saturday 7th November 17:00
Hmmm.. difficult to read all that (period!) without a distinct air of "I want to repremand/disrepect it/you" and dare I say it even bitterness, which was pretty funny and such humour is the only reason I'm bothering with a complete reply. Dunno if that was the intent...?
Anyway, you demonstrate and bit of naivety of the YouTube world. No seriously, it's not a cuss - reasons below.
I think the point that seems to have been missed is that it is a "defensive driving demonstration" it just happens to feature Senna. It's a different style of fun vid that is not present on YT. He did pretty much all the basic moves you could 'name'. If anything, it's bouying-up Senna, as he was complete enough as a driver to have 'demoed' them for all to see throughout his career - unlike any other F1 driver I have footage of. It's there to invoke discussion on YT and, inevitably, other sites around the world jugding by how my other vids got around. So as per the people who made the comments seem to understand, it's a compilation of *cool* Senna moves for the fun of it.
FYI there is only one F1 driver I don't respect and it's not Senna.
It is also for those who have no idea who he was, how good he was, or even a slightest idea of what defensive driving is, much less terms like "shutting the door". For a general site, the audience is general. Any subjective comments go by his reputation that probably preceeds him for the benefit of that general audience. Hence he question marks at the end. They're not a claim, they're a question.
If I wanted to do a serious defensive driving techniques vid, it would need a production team, a couple of racing cars, a couple of racing drivers, an exclusive track day...
If you want to view it as against Senna, that's cool. If you want to view it as a demo of how complete Senna was, that's cool. If you don't want to view it at all, that's cool. It you want to pull apart a footage compilation spanning 10 years because you decide the creator has an opinion that you don't agree with for the sake of yourself, well that's up to you!
I sign my name on vids now because some people have a tendancy to rip vids off YT and then reupload claiming it as their own work. This has happened to several of mine. A compliment perhaps, but really it's just plain annoying. So I stuck it on there just to let people know who made it should it get ripped. Other people do this for the same reason - like Anitti or Tifosi (well known YT F1 vid creators). I dunno how you can construe that as a copyright claim though?
As for the music, again naivety. Clearly you haven't put any such vids on YT - try uploading a vid with anything more than a top 50 hit. It'll almost certainly get blocked instantly. So I don't bother any more and use rare stuff. Believe me I have over 200GB of all kinds of music on my PC, mainstream and underground stuff of all genres. I could put anything on it (infact the first version of the vid had a looping edit of Orbital's Satan live remix - result? Blocked by Sony IIRC.) As for anything else about me offending your musical taste, hmmm... I don't care?
The world never has revolved around one person...
Anyway, you demonstrate and bit of naivety of the YouTube world. No seriously, it's not a cuss - reasons below.
I think the point that seems to have been missed is that it is a "defensive driving demonstration" it just happens to feature Senna. It's a different style of fun vid that is not present on YT. He did pretty much all the basic moves you could 'name'. If anything, it's bouying-up Senna, as he was complete enough as a driver to have 'demoed' them for all to see throughout his career - unlike any other F1 driver I have footage of. It's there to invoke discussion on YT and, inevitably, other sites around the world jugding by how my other vids got around. So as per the people who made the comments seem to understand, it's a compilation of *cool* Senna moves for the fun of it.
FYI there is only one F1 driver I don't respect and it's not Senna.
It is also for those who have no idea who he was, how good he was, or even a slightest idea of what defensive driving is, much less terms like "shutting the door". For a general site, the audience is general. Any subjective comments go by his reputation that probably preceeds him for the benefit of that general audience. Hence he question marks at the end. They're not a claim, they're a question.
If I wanted to do a serious defensive driving techniques vid, it would need a production team, a couple of racing cars, a couple of racing drivers, an exclusive track day...
If you want to view it as against Senna, that's cool. If you want to view it as a demo of how complete Senna was, that's cool. If you don't want to view it at all, that's cool. It you want to pull apart a footage compilation spanning 10 years because you decide the creator has an opinion that you don't agree with for the sake of yourself, well that's up to you!
I sign my name on vids now because some people have a tendancy to rip vids off YT and then reupload claiming it as their own work. This has happened to several of mine. A compliment perhaps, but really it's just plain annoying. So I stuck it on there just to let people know who made it should it get ripped. Other people do this for the same reason - like Anitti or Tifosi (well known YT F1 vid creators). I dunno how you can construe that as a copyright claim though?
As for the music, again naivety. Clearly you haven't put any such vids on YT - try uploading a vid with anything more than a top 50 hit. It'll almost certainly get blocked instantly. So I don't bother any more and use rare stuff. Believe me I have over 200GB of all kinds of music on my PC, mainstream and underground stuff of all genres. I could put anything on it (infact the first version of the vid had a looping edit of Orbital's Satan live remix - result? Blocked by Sony IIRC.) As for anything else about me offending your musical taste, hmmm... I don't care?
The world never has revolved around one person...
mattikake said:
If you want to view it as against Senna, that's cool.
I don't know why you produced the video. The subtitles all seem critical, so the video seems to be trying to convince the viewer that he was an aggressive/unsporting/unfair driver. I didn't see anything in his driving to justify your criticisms though, which is why I described it as an 'own goal'. If you had some other purpose in mind, then I'd suggest you've failed in whatever it was you were trying to show. GreenV8S said:
mattikake said:
If you want to view it as against Senna, that's cool.
I don't know why you produced the video. The subtitles all seem critical, so the video seems to be trying to convince the viewer that he was an aggressive/unsporting/unfair driver. I didn't see anything in his driving to justify your criticisms though, which is why I described it as an 'own goal'. If you had some other purpose in mind, then I'd suggest you've failed in whatever it was you were trying to show. I dunno what to say? Towards the end it has a category called "combos - for memories of a legend" and at the very end after the Monaco'92 win, it says "winning is not just about speed or overtaking..." implying there are other required skills to be 'great'.
How is this derogatory towards Senna?
The video is quite literally QUESTIONING the perception that he was Aggressive"?"/Unfair"?"/Ungentlemanly"?" - wreckless - and instead points out by way of visual evidence, that if anything he was actually rather good and consistent - sporting - at what he did. It also makes no judgement as to whether the moves were over the top or not.
Actually, it has a pretty neutral stance, so maybe you should be thinking about your own judgements, instead of putting them in my mouth? Not that any opinion is right or wrong anyway.
There are a lot of (almost devout) Senna fans already commenting on the video and the channel which are nothing but positive towards me or the vid. So it only appears to be some know-it-all's on PH trying to tell me I'm wrong/bad/poor where an over-whelming majority appears to disagree.
The goal was an entertaining vid for a bit of free and fun nostalgia. It's very clear from the video and channel comments and ratings that I have succeeded in this. Is PH being misrepresented by the self-obsessed few?
Surely not?
As to why I produced it, as is always the case - because I can.
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