Alonso v's Massa-you're opinion?
Discussion
So's not to clog up the Chinese gp thread with my ponderings I thought I'd start this thread.......
Now,I'm no Ferrari fan,but I still see Alonso as quite possibly the best driver out there,& Massa comes across as one of the good guys-his behavior after loosing the title to Hamilton comes to mind.
As a manager of soughts myself I saw Alonso's move into the pit lane as out of order. Massa made an error in leaving the gap there but seeing as it was a teammate behind you would assume he thought Alonso wouldn't have tried the move.
Do you think it was the racer in Alonso that made him spring the move?ie split second decision?
Has he been planning a move on Massa to show his authority?
He already knew Massa was very highly thought of in the team so is it just in his personality to be unable to be a team player?
Oh yeah,& I know a lot of people don't like Alonso so it'd be great if you have a bit more to say than "he's a kn*b" !!
Now,I'm no Ferrari fan,but I still see Alonso as quite possibly the best driver out there,& Massa comes across as one of the good guys-his behavior after loosing the title to Hamilton comes to mind.
As a manager of soughts myself I saw Alonso's move into the pit lane as out of order. Massa made an error in leaving the gap there but seeing as it was a teammate behind you would assume he thought Alonso wouldn't have tried the move.
Do you think it was the racer in Alonso that made him spring the move?ie split second decision?
Has he been planning a move on Massa to show his authority?
He already knew Massa was very highly thought of in the team so is it just in his personality to be unable to be a team player?
Oh yeah,& I know a lot of people don't like Alonso so it'd be great if you have a bit more to say than "he's a kn*b" !!
I've always liked Massa because he tends to be open & honest with the media but I think the first 4 GPs have shown us the same Massa that we had when he used to partner the Shoe Maker, ie a good number 2 driver. I think as the season progresses acceptance will settle him back in to that role.
Given that it was his performance as measured against Kimi for the season and a half preceeding his accident that gave us the incling that he might possibly match Alfonso; the real question is, what on earth was up with Kimi?
Given that it was his performance as measured against Kimi for the season and a half preceeding his accident that gave us the incling that he might possibly match Alfonso; the real question is, what on earth was up with Kimi?
cragswinter said:
Oh yeah,& I know a lot of people don't like Alonso so it'd be great if you have a bit more to say than "he's a kn*b" !!
How about He's a cheating kn*b?I know that if you are a Ferrari driver with ambition you hae to say nice things about the team but if his car is the class of the field one wonders why it is not shown in the results.
Historically wet races allow driver skill to come to the fore yet he's mixing it with Nico, Lewis and, only a few points behind, his team mate. And McLaren have won two races this season and Ferrari one.
There's little doubt that the Ferrari is a grat car but I think it is inferior to the RB. That said, it would apepar as if the McLaren is third in the list yet it has made the Ferrari look ordinary at times.
The threads that ask which driver is the best at the moment, in the past, in the future ignore the undisputed fact that F1 is a team sport.
Massa as a great driver? I'm not so sure. Alonso? Yes. Hamilton? Without a doubt the most exciting driver to watch out there at the moment. Does that make him great? In many people's eyes it does.
I've read that both Massa and Alonso have denied rumours of a rift between them. So wath this space.
Derek Smith said:
cragswinter said:
Oh yeah,& I know a lot of people don't like Alonso so it'd be great if you have a bit more to say than "he's a kn*b" !!
How about He's a cheating kn*b?I know that if you are a Ferrari driver with ambition you hae to say nice things about the team but if his car is the class of the field one wonders why it is not shown in the results.
Historically wet races allow driver skill to come to the fore yet he's mixing it with Nico, Lewis and, only a few points behind, his team mate. And McLaren have won two races this season and Ferrari one.
There's little doubt that the Ferrari is a grat car but I think it is inferior to the RB. That said, it would apepar as if the McLaren is third in the list yet it has made the Ferrari look ordinary at times.
The threads that ask which driver is the best at the moment, in the past, in the future ignore the undisputed fact that F1 is a team sport.
Massa as a great driver? I'm not so sure. Alonso? Yes. Hamilton? Without a doubt the most exciting driver to watch out there at the moment. Does that make him great? In many people's eyes it does.
I've read that both Massa and Alonso have denied rumours of a rift between them. So wath this space.
As for Massa? Consistent driver and good Number 2 but i cant see him ever winning a WDC especially now that the FIA dont seem to be getting involved with "anything".
With regards to the Ferrari? I think its the only car that has not went faster as the season has gone, its asif Ferrari have stopped development on it.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 09:16
Wanta996Gotta said:
Derek Smith said:
cragswinter said:
Oh yeah,& I know a lot of people don't like Alonso so it'd be great if you have a bit more to say than "he's a kn*b" !!
How about He's a cheating kn*b?I know that if you are a Ferrari driver with ambition you hae to say nice things about the team but if his car is the class of the field one wonders why it is not shown in the results.
Historically wet races allow driver skill to come to the fore yet he's mixing it with Nico, Lewis and, only a few points behind, his team mate. And McLaren have won two races this season and Ferrari one.
There's little doubt that the Ferrari is a grat car but I think it is inferior to the RB. That said, it would apepar as if the McLaren is third in the list yet it has made the Ferrari look ordinary at times.
The threads that ask which driver is the best at the moment, in the past, in the future ignore the undisputed fact that F1 is a team sport.
Massa as a great driver? I'm not so sure. Alonso? Yes. Hamilton? Without a doubt the most exciting driver to watch out there at the moment. Does that make him great? In many people's eyes it does.
I've read that both Massa and Alonso have denied rumours of a rift between them. So wath this space.
As for Massa? Consistent driver and good Number 2 but i cant see him ever winning a WDC especially now that the FIA dont seem to be getting involved with "anything".
With regards to the Ferrari? I think its the only car that has not went faster as the season has gone, its asif Ferrari have stopped development on it.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 09:16
It's also worth bearing in mind that they looked fast enough in qualy in the dry in China and still appeared to have more pace then Red Bull in the wet on Sunday.
KaraK said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
Derek Smith said:
cragswinter said:
Oh yeah,& I know a lot of people don't like Alonso so it'd be great if you have a bit more to say than "he's a kn*b" !!
How about He's a cheating kn*b?I know that if you are a Ferrari driver with ambition you hae to say nice things about the team but if his car is the class of the field one wonders why it is not shown in the results.
Historically wet races allow driver skill to come to the fore yet he's mixing it with Nico, Lewis and, only a few points behind, his team mate. And McLaren have won two races this season and Ferrari one.
There's little doubt that the Ferrari is a grat car but I think it is inferior to the RB. That said, it would apepar as if the McLaren is third in the list yet it has made the Ferrari look ordinary at times.
The threads that ask which driver is the best at the moment, in the past, in the future ignore the undisputed fact that F1 is a team sport.
Massa as a great driver? I'm not so sure. Alonso? Yes. Hamilton? Without a doubt the most exciting driver to watch out there at the moment. Does that make him great? In many people's eyes it does.
I've read that both Massa and Alonso have denied rumours of a rift between them. So wath this space.
As for Massa? Consistent driver and good Number 2 but i cant see him ever winning a WDC especially now that the FIA dont seem to be getting involved with "anything".
With regards to the Ferrari? I think its the only car that has not went faster as the season has gone, its asif Ferrari have stopped development on it.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 09:16
It's also worth bearing in mind that they looked fast enough in qualy in the dry in China and still appeared to have more pace then Red Bull in the wet on Sunday.
And surely all of the teams will have upgrades/developments coming for Spain. Heiki's been talkning about make or break for the season for Lotus with the upgrades they have coming.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 10:38
Wanta996Gotta said:
Alonso in a Ferrari looked quick enough. Massa in that Ferrari does not look quick atall. Wither its the car or the driver i dont know. Similar to Mercedes - is Rosberg taking that car to the Max or is Shuey just slow? Schuey fans are blaming the car but Rosber sitting second in the table shows that the car is no dog.
Isn't it a bit more subtle than "the car is quick" or "the car is a dog"? That is, a car that perfectly suits one driving style will be quick in the hands of a driver who drives that way, yet another driver who doesn't get on with it will seem slow.jamieboy said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
Alonso in a Ferrari looked quick enough. Massa in that Ferrari does not look quick atall. Wither its the car or the driver i dont know. Similar to Mercedes - is Rosberg taking that car to the Max or is Shuey just slow? Schuey fans are blaming the car but Rosber sitting second in the table shows that the car is no dog.
Isn't it a bit more subtle than "the car is quick" or "the car is a dog"? That is, a car that perfectly suits one driving style will be quick in the hands of a driver who drives that way, yet another driver who doesn't get on with it will seem slow.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 10:56
You can argue it all ways, but as a fan of competition in general, I thought it was brilliant and showed the difference in personalities between Alonso and Massa perfectly. Massa left the door open either because he didn't consider the possibility or he was naive to Alonso's intentions. I want to see drivers taking the piss, doing anything to get past everyone else, regardless of who it is. I want to see Massa fight back though, it's bad for us fans if the drivers are too friendly with each other. Now Mosely has gone, it falls to the drivers to entertain us between races surely?
Sure Alonso is a
, but he's entertaining.
Sure Alonso is a
, but he's entertaining.Is entertaining enough?
I went into a Jewish woman's house and found a picture of Oedipus on the wall, in a position of some prominence. Given that his CV read: look good, killed Dad, married Mum, I suggested to her that it went against her ethos of family first.
She shrugged: ‘He loved his mother. What’s not to like?
Are you perhaps putting too much emphasis on just the one aspect?
I went into a Jewish woman's house and found a picture of Oedipus on the wall, in a position of some prominence. Given that his CV read: look good, killed Dad, married Mum, I suggested to her that it went against her ethos of family first.
She shrugged: ‘He loved his mother. What’s not to like?
Are you perhaps putting too much emphasis on just the one aspect?
I have never really rated Massa. In his early years I wondered whether he was controlling the car or vice versa, more recently he has settled down and looked quite good on occasions but this year he seems to have slipped back, perhaps he believes the Alonso hype and his worry about being shown up by him is affecting his driving.
Alonso had a storming race on Sunday to come from an extra stop (albeit a drive through) to finish 4th but his move on Massa was out of order (as was Hamilton's on Vettel) and smacked of desparation.
Is Alonso one of the best out there? He certainly thinks he is but aside from his championship years, I don't think he's shown any real class or done anything outstanding.
Alonso had a storming race on Sunday to come from an extra stop (albeit a drive through) to finish 4th but his move on Massa was out of order (as was Hamilton's on Vettel) and smacked of desparation.
Is Alonso one of the best out there? He certainly thinks he is but aside from his championship years, I don't think he's shown any real class or done anything outstanding.
profstoff said:
I have never really rated Massa. In his early years I wondered whether he was controlling the car or vice versa, more recently he has settled down and looked quite good on occasions but this year he seems to have slipped back, perhaps he believes the Alonso hype and his worry about being shown up by him is affecting his driving.
Alonso had a storming race on Sunday to come from an extra stop (albeit a drive through) to finish 4th but his move on Massa was out of order (as was Hamilton's on Vettel) and smacked of desparation.
Is Alonso one of the best out there? He certainly thinks he is but aside from his championship years, I don't think he's shown any real class or done anything outstanding.
Exactly, whats he actually done in the last 3 years? He has no excuses this year as the F10 is the best car he has ever driven remember.Alonso had a storming race on Sunday to come from an extra stop (albeit a drive through) to finish 4th but his move on Massa was out of order (as was Hamilton's on Vettel) and smacked of desparation.
Is Alonso one of the best out there? He certainly thinks he is but aside from his championship years, I don't think he's shown any real class or done anything outstanding.
One of the prime issues that Ferrari have this year, is their performance in qualifying, the net result of which seems to be that Alonso in a quick Ferrari is finding himself either stuck behind Massa or mixing it up with the perceived number two drivers of the top teams (Hamilton, Rosberg etc) whilst the number ones head off into the distance (Buttons pre safety car performance on Sunday being a case in point)
I wouldn’t be surprised if his pit lane pass of Massa on Sunday, results in Ferrari manoeuvring Massa out of the way in future races
I wouldn’t be surprised if his pit lane pass of Massa on Sunday, results in Ferrari manoeuvring Massa out of the way in future races
Wanta996Gotta said:
Exactly, whats he actually done in the last 3 years? He has no excuses this year as the F10 is the best car he has ever driven remember.
Well, we know what happened in '07. For '08 and '09 he soundly beat his (admittedly poor) team-mate, and he seemed to get everything out of the Renault that it had to give. Not sure what more he could have done.And it doesn't matter if the F10 is the best car he's ever driven, if this year's Red Bull or McLaren or Mercedes are better.
jamieboy said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
Exactly, whats he actually done in the last 3 years? He has no excuses this year as the F10 is the best car he has ever driven remember.
Well, we know what happened in '07. For '08 and '09 he soundly beat his (admittedly poor) team-mate, and he seemed to get everything out of the Renault that it had to give. Not sure what more he could have done.And it doesn't matter if the F10 is the best car he's ever driven, if this year's Red Bull or McLaren or Mercedes are better.
You need more than a quick car, the driver has to be up for it. Being consistently stuck behind a teammate in the same car or jumping a start have nothing to do with what Mclaren and Redbulls pace is.
And what did happen in 07,08 and 09 apart from him beating Piquet and being beaten by Hamilton?
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 11:35
jamieboy said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
Exactly, whats he actually done in the last 3 years? He has no excuses this year as the F10 is the best car he has ever driven remember.
Well, we know what happened in '07. For '08 and '09 he soundly beat his (admittedly poor) team-mate, and he seemed to get everything out of the Renault that it had to give. Not sure what more he could have done.And it doesn't matter if the F10 is the best car he's ever driven, if this year's Red Bull or McLaren or Mercedes are better.
Wanta996Gotta said:
jamieboy said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
Exactly, whats he actually done in the last 3 years? He has no excuses this year as the F10 is the best car he has ever driven remember.
Well, we know what happened in '07. For '08 and '09 he soundly beat his (admittedly poor) team-mate, and he seemed to get everything out of the Renault that it had to give. Not sure what more he could have done.And it doesn't matter if the F10 is the best car he's ever driven, if this year's Red Bull or McLaren or Mercedes are better.
You need more than a quick car, the driver has to be up for it. Being consistently stuck behind a teammate in the same car or jumping a start have nothing to do with what Mclaren and Redbulls pace is.
And what did happen in 07,08 and 09 apart from him beating Piquet and being beaten by Hamilton?
In response to your comment "He has no excuses this year as the F10 is the best car he has ever driven", I pointed out that while that may be the case, it doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the cars he hasn't driven.
I'd say the move on Massa shows that he is up for it, and perhaps tells us more than the fact that he jumped the start.
Not sure where you're going with this, other than squabbling.
Wanta996Gotta said:
KaraK said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
Derek Smith said:
cragswinter said:
Oh yeah,& I know a lot of people don't like Alonso so it'd be great if you have a bit more to say than "he's a kn*b" !!
How about He's a cheating kn*b?I know that if you are a Ferrari driver with ambition you hae to say nice things about the team but if his car is the class of the field one wonders why it is not shown in the results.
Historically wet races allow driver skill to come to the fore yet he's mixing it with Nico, Lewis and, only a few points behind, his team mate. And McLaren have won two races this season and Ferrari one.
There's little doubt that the Ferrari is a grat car but I think it is inferior to the RB. That said, it would apepar as if the McLaren is third in the list yet it has made the Ferrari look ordinary at times.
The threads that ask which driver is the best at the moment, in the past, in the future ignore the undisputed fact that F1 is a team sport.
Massa as a great driver? I'm not so sure. Alonso? Yes. Hamilton? Without a doubt the most exciting driver to watch out there at the moment. Does that make him great? In many people's eyes it does.
I've read that both Massa and Alonso have denied rumours of a rift between them. So wath this space.
As for Massa? Consistent driver and good Number 2 but i cant see him ever winning a WDC especially now that the FIA dont seem to be getting involved with "anything".
With regards to the Ferrari? I think its the only car that has not went faster as the season has gone, its asif Ferrari have stopped development on it.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 09:16
It's also worth bearing in mind that they looked fast enough in qualy in the dry in China and still appeared to have more pace then Red Bull in the wet on Sunday.
And surely all of the teams will have upgrades/developments coming for Spain. Heiki's been talkning about make or break for the season for Lotus with the upgrades they have coming.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 10:38
KaraK said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
KaraK said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
Derek Smith said:
cragswinter said:
Oh yeah,& I know a lot of people don't like Alonso so it'd be great if you have a bit more to say than "he's a kn*b" !!
How about He's a cheating kn*b?I know that if you are a Ferrari driver with ambition you hae to say nice things about the team but if his car is the class of the field one wonders why it is not shown in the results.
Historically wet races allow driver skill to come to the fore yet he's mixing it with Nico, Lewis and, only a few points behind, his team mate. And McLaren have won two races this season and Ferrari one.
There's little doubt that the Ferrari is a grat car but I think it is inferior to the RB. That said, it would apepar as if the McLaren is third in the list yet it has made the Ferrari look ordinary at times.
The threads that ask which driver is the best at the moment, in the past, in the future ignore the undisputed fact that F1 is a team sport.
Massa as a great driver? I'm not so sure. Alonso? Yes. Hamilton? Without a doubt the most exciting driver to watch out there at the moment. Does that make him great? In many people's eyes it does.
I've read that both Massa and Alonso have denied rumours of a rift between them. So wath this space.
As for Massa? Consistent driver and good Number 2 but i cant see him ever winning a WDC especially now that the FIA dont seem to be getting involved with "anything".
With regards to the Ferrari? I think its the only car that has not went faster as the season has gone, its asif Ferrari have stopped development on it.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 09:16
It's also worth bearing in mind that they looked fast enough in qualy in the dry in China and still appeared to have more pace then Red Bull in the wet on Sunday.
And surely all of the teams will have upgrades/developments coming for Spain. Heiki's been talkning about make or break for the season for Lotus with the upgrades they have coming.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Wednesday 21st April 10:38
I think your evaluation answers the question in why Alonso will be Number 1 this year at Ferrari.Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff