Merc - backwards step or favouritism?

[mattikake]

The Mercedes is certainly relatively slower than it was last race:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/09/progress-or-...

So, does that mean an oversteery car is not the way to go, even though it 'feels' better to drive?

There was a comment during the coverage - could've been during quali - that Nico had tried 2 extreme ballast settings to find the right setup of the car, also losing him setup time. This is not the behaviour of someone who has a car design changed more to their liking, regardless of what his PR face might be saying to the cameras.

[Bombjack]

The metric that article uses would make every team look bad, since it measures them against the fastest time of the weekend - set by the stupid-fast Red Bulls.

The reversal of driver fortunes was rather stark, but it's only one race weekend. I'm reserving judgement for now.

[CampDavid]

No.

The car has look an understeery mess in both the hands of Nico and Michael in the first 4 races, Nico has dealt with it better.

As Nico said at the weekend, the car is a step forward in absolute terms but they've moved back in terms of their rivals.

[Wanta996Gotta]

Apparently the Schumacher spark is back

Aphttp://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83514

[Graham E]

Are you sure it's not that rivals made bigger forward steps rather than Merc going backwards?

[KaraK]

mattikake said:

The Mercedes is certainly relatively slower than it was last race:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/09/progress-or-...

So, does that mean an oversteery car is not the way to go, even though it 'feels' better to drive?

There was a comment during the coverage - could've been during quali - that Nico had tried 2 extreme ballast settings to find the right setup of the car, also losing him setup time. This is not the behaviour of someone who has a car design changed more to their liking, regardless of what his PR face might be saying to the cameras.

This whole non-story really is getting tiring now, most of the teams brought significant updates to Spain and, as is often the case in Formula 1 you'll get a situation in some teams where one driver deals with the changes to the car better than their teammate. Usually though this happens and the world keeps turning without everyone getting all up in arms about it. Look at Mclaren, Jenson was struggling all weekend with oversteer (something he dislikes) - I've seen precisely zero claims of a Mclaren conspiracy aimed at favouring Lewis (who is known to be happy for the car to have a lively back end).

From the scale of the changes to the car it's pretty clear that they arent knee-jerk reactions to the flyaway races and Mercedes certainly aren't the only team where their great upgrades for this race didn't give them the gains they were looking for, Williams even had to take theirs off!

[mchammer89]

KaraK said:

mattikake said:

The Mercedes is certainly relatively slower than it was last race:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/09/progress-or-...

So, does that mean an oversteery car is not the way to go, even though it 'feels' better to drive?

There was a comment during the coverage - could've been during quali - that Nico had tried 2 extreme ballast settings to find the right setup of the car, also losing him setup time. This is not the behaviour of someone who has a car design changed more to their liking, regardless of what his PR face might be saying to the cameras.

This whole non-story really is getting tiring now, most of the teams brought significant updates to Spain and, as is often the case in Formula 1 you'll get a situation in some teams where one driver deals with the changes to the car better than their teammate. Usually though this happens and the world keeps turning without everyone getting all up in arms about it. Look at Mclaren, Jenson was struggling all weekend with oversteer (something he dislikes) - I've seen precisely zero claims of a Mclaren conspiracy aimed at favouring Lewis (who is known to be happy for the car to have a lively back end).

From the scale of the changes to the car it's pretty clear that they arent knee-jerk reactions to the flyaway races and Mercedes certainly aren't the only team where their great upgrades for this race didn't give them the gains they were looking for, Williams even had to take theirs off!

Well said that man.

[SRT77]

What a stupid thread.
Ross Brawn stated that these upgrades were decided on before the first race.
Other teams just happened to have moved forward also.
Merc are paying Rosbergs salary. They need both cars in the points.
So unless Schumacher is consistently behind Rosberg, then there must be some sort of favoritism going on.

[mattikake]

KaraK said:

mattikake said:

The Mercedes is certainly relatively slower than it was last race:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/09/progress-or-...

So, does that mean an oversteery car is not the way to go, even though it 'feels' better to drive?

There was a comment during the coverage - could've been during quali - that Nico had tried 2 extreme ballast settings to find the right setup of the car, also losing him setup time. This is not the behaviour of someone who has a car design changed more to their liking, regardless of what his PR face might be saying to the cameras.

This whole non-story really is getting tiring now, most of the teams brought significant updates to Spain and, as is often the case in Formula 1 you'll get a situation in some teams where one driver deals with the changes to the car better than their teammate. Usually though this happens and the world keeps turning without everyone getting all up in arms about it. Look at Mclaren, Jenson was struggling all weekend with oversteer (something he dislikes) - I've seen precisely zero claims of a Mclaren conspiracy aimed at favouring Lewis (who is known to be happy for the car to have a lively back end).

From the scale of the changes to the car it's pretty clear that they arent knee-jerk reactions to the flyaway races and Mercedes certainly aren't the only team where their great upgrades for this race didn't give them the gains they were looking for, Williams even had to take theirs off!

How can a story 1 day old, be getting tiring?

Anyway, this is the problem. Schumi's reputation for team management preceeds him.

A 6th and 9th in Quali represents Merc's worst quali performance so far this year and a 4th and 13th finishing positions are also their worst race result, baring Schumi's retirement in Malaysia, though they still scored a podium.

Merc's qualifying times compared to 2009 as Brawn at Barcelona are also around 0.7s slower. Every other team has improved on their 2009 quali times (some only just by a few thousandths) but certainly none have made such a large backward step.

Also compared to other circuits visited so far, 2009 v's 2010 (except Bahrain - new layout, Malaysia - wet) there is around a 1.6s gain across the field of major teams such as Redbull, Renault, Ferrari, Williams (exceptions like McLaren - crap car - 4.0s gain over quali last year!) and Brawn/Merc.

It seems certain they have made a significant backward step and it is NOT just "standing still" relative to the performance of the other teams. The Merc is slower than the Brawn at Barcelona ONLY.

So the only questions are, have they done this to favour Schumi? And is that because they just do? Or because Schumi has convinced the team this is the right way to go, when it clearly isn't? A genuine error of design by Merc? Is Schumi's preferred driving style/car balance not actually the fastest way to get a post 2008 car round a track? The data would implicate that the answer to final question is 'yes'.

• source www.forumla1.com

[CampDavid]

Interesting post, however what figures are you comparing? Quali, fastest laps etc?

Remember the regulations have changed to slow the cars down and Brawn really had got on top of last years rules

[mchammer89]

Didn't you read the post above?

Edit - Sorry that wasn't directed at you CampDavid, that was at the OP

Edited by mchammer89 on Monday 10th May 19:56

[CampDavid]

Just re-read it. Cheers for the sarcasm. We're such friendly geeks here aren't we

[mchammer89]

Look, this happens to every team, several times per season. They upgrade the car, to find that it suits one driver more than the other. It very, very, very rarely sparks crys of conspiracy. So why this time? Just forget the speculation and enjoy the racing.

[DSM2]

mattikake said:

KaraK said:

mattikake said:

The Mercedes is certainly relatively slower than it was last race:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/09/progress-or-...

So, does that mean an oversteery car is not the way to go, even though it 'feels' better to drive?

There was a comment during the coverage - could've been during quali - that Nico had tried 2 extreme ballast settings to find the right setup of the car, also losing him setup time. This is not the behaviour of someone who has a car design changed more to their liking, regardless of what his PR face might be saying to the cameras.

This whole non-story really is getting tiring now, most of the teams brought significant updates to Spain and, as is often the case in Formula 1 you'll get a situation in some teams where one driver deals with the changes to the car better than their teammate. Usually though this happens and the world keeps turning without everyone getting all up in arms about it. Look at Mclaren, Jenson was struggling all weekend with oversteer (something he dislikes) - I've seen precisely zero claims of a Mclaren conspiracy aimed at favouring Lewis (who is known to be happy for the car to have a lively back end).

From the scale of the changes to the car it's pretty clear that they arent knee-jerk reactions to the flyaway races and Mercedes certainly aren't the only team where their great upgrades for this race didn't give them the gains they were looking for, Williams even had to take theirs off!

How can a story 1 day old, be getting tiring?

Anyway, this is the problem. Schumi's reputation for team management preceeds him.

A 6th and 9th in Quali represents Merc's worst quali performance so far this year and a 4th and 13th finishing positions are also their worst race result, baring Schumi's retirement in Malaysia, though they still scored a podium.

Merc's qualifying times compared to 2009 as Brawn at Barcelona are also around 0.7s slower. Every other team has improved on their 2009 quali times (some only just by a few thousandths) but certainly none have made such a large backward step.

Also compared to other circuits visited so far, 2009 v's 2010 (except Bahrain - new layout, Malaysia - wet) there is around a 1.6s gain across the field of major teams such as Redbull, Renault, Ferrari, Williams (exceptions like McLaren - crap car - 4.0s gain over quali last year!) and Brawn/Merc.

It seems certain they have made a significant backward step and it is NOT just "standing still" relative to the performance of the other teams. The Merc is slower than the Brawn at Barcelona ONLY.

So the only questions are, have they done this to favour Schumi? And is that because they just do? Or because Schumi has convinced the team this is the right way to go, when it clearly isn't? A genuine error of design by Merc? Is Schumi's preferred driving style/car balance not actually the fastest way to get a post 2008 car round a track? The data would implicate that the answer to final question is 'yes'.

• source www.forumla1.com

A vaguely interesting theory but, as usual, fiction.

I was visiting the MGP factory on 11th February. At that time they had recognised the weight distribution issue, confirmed by both drivers, and had decided on the suspension revision to address it. It was scheduled for Spain and had nothing to do with any of the race performances this year of either driver.

The airbox change was planned before the season, the 'spike' rollover that allows it can be seen in pictures from the pre-season tests.

This was all stated by Nick Fry on Saturday but, hey, don't let the truth get in the way of a good Pistonheads thread, eh?

[mattikake]

mchammer89 said:

Look, this happens to every team, several times per season. They upgrade the car, to find that it suits one driver more than the other. It very, very, very rarely sparks crys of conspiracy. So why this time? Just forget the speculation and enjoy the racing.

I accept that point. Believe me I'm sticking to fact as much as possible here, even though my bias is to keep the Schumi fans on the defensive (funny that empiricism continually backs up my original opinion though, huh? )

Almost every time a development is made to a car, it is a forward step, whether it favours one driver or both, but the overall times of one and usually both cars, is faster. (I'm going by fastest Quali times btw)

Best way to put it is; The Merc has been faster/same speed as Brawn at Australia and Malaysia except at Barcelona where the Merc is 1.3s slower than the Brawn. (it would also seem to imply that Rosberg/Schumi are not really any faster than Button/Rubens in Oz - they are all within 0.1s of their best times - but of course there are many factors that could +/- a tenth or two - track temp, tyres, as well as small changes with the car. However, we are looking at well over a second slower, which is a significant exception to the norm!)

This is a backward step and favours neither driver, not even Schumi except for him being faster than Rosberg. (Schumi's fastest quali lap in Oz was about the same as Button's fastest quali lap. But Schumi is 1.3s slower than Button in a Brawn in Barcelona)

So, anyone want to apply Occam's Razor to that?

Edited by mattikake on Monday 10th May 17:42

[SRT77]

Did Brawn come up with a good upgrade at Barcelona last year?
Shumacher who should know a thing or two said yes the car is better to drive , but not nearly fast enough.
Rosberg said more or less the same thing in that the upgrades were positive, but not a step forward.

[sheps]

All this comparing MS in a Merc to Button in a Brawn??

Anyone got the times to compare Schumacher and Rosberg from the weekend, to MS and NR at Barcelona pre season testing..pre updates?

[mchammer89]

sheps said:

All this comparing MS in a Merc to Button in a Brawn??

Anyone got the times to compare Schumacher and Rosberg from the weekend, to MS and NR at Barcelona pre season testing..pre updates?

That would be a much better comparison. It's just strange saying how Mercedes have effectively dropped almost 2 seconds off the pace, yet Schumacher still managed to get 4th place. Ahead of Button who doesn't really have any excuse (do you honestly think that drivers depend on their shift lights to let them know when they should change gears?).

[Killer2005]

Graham E said:

Are you sure it's not that rivals made bigger forward steps rather than Merc going backwards?

That wouldn't fit in with Mattikake's Schumacher conspiracy theory though. Suprising he hasn't made any video's on the issue yet

[John D.]

Personally I'd favour Schumi more than Rosberg if I was running the team. A little bit of the old magic could go a long way.