F1 Then and Now and Tonight's Top Gear...
Discussion
Hi all,
No need to say much about tonight's episode, plenty of accolades in other threads.
It did get me thinking though. I was in my early 20's when Senna was killed, just watching MB going through old clips of races gone by reminded me of how much more exciting motor racing could be. We have had plenty of debates about how staid the sport was becoming over the last few years. Although it's never going to happen, would F1 fans prefer to see cars in line with the types from that era? I guess A1 was perhaps the closest it got to that??
What do you think?
No need to say much about tonight's episode, plenty of accolades in other threads.
It did get me thinking though. I was in my early 20's when Senna was killed, just watching MB going through old clips of races gone by reminded me of how much more exciting motor racing could be. We have had plenty of debates about how staid the sport was becoming over the last few years. Although it's never going to happen, would F1 fans prefer to see cars in line with the types from that era? I guess A1 was perhaps the closest it got to that??
What do you think?
Chuck328 said:
Hi all,
No need to say much about tonight's episode, plenty of accolades in other threads.
It did get me thinking though. I was in my early 20's when Senna was killed, just watching MB going through old clips of races gone by reminded me of how much more exciting motor racing could be. We have had plenty of debates about how staid the sport was becoming over the last few years. Although it's never going to happen, would F1 fans prefer to see cars in line with the types from that era? I guess A1 was perhaps the closest it got to that??
What do you think?
I would, though I wouldn't want the cars to become less technically advanced (IMO manual gearboxes wouldn't be good for F1, the techy image it has wouldn't be done any good). Ground effect should be explored as should hence simplifying the aerodynamics on the top of the car. No refueling is a step that way IMO but the sport needs radical changes (and not what NASCAR or the IRL call radical either) to improve its overtaking and spectacle.No need to say much about tonight's episode, plenty of accolades in other threads.
It did get me thinking though. I was in my early 20's when Senna was killed, just watching MB going through old clips of races gone by reminded me of how much more exciting motor racing could be. We have had plenty of debates about how staid the sport was becoming over the last few years. Although it's never going to happen, would F1 fans prefer to see cars in line with the types from that era? I guess A1 was perhaps the closest it got to that??
What do you think?
Of course it'd be difficult to replicate the amount of grip modern cars have with simpler aero's but that's why the designers get paid so much!
DangerousMike said:
if you go through clips of the F1 now in 10 years time, it will look very exciting. This is because people pick the exciting clips from the past to show in retrospective features like that.
^That.Back in Senna's time it was quite common for the top cars to be separated by 30-40 seconds. What we have now is very close racing compared to back in the good ol' days.
Yes. I can remember races when one driver would lap almost everyone else, win at a canter with everybody getting out of their way. In fact it was often like that
The last few years (say, 2007 on) have been great racing, and will probably be looked back on fundly as another "golden age"
The last few years (say, 2007 on) have been great racing, and will probably be looked back on fundly as another "golden age"
I agree with what others have said, the racing in the 90's was often boring and processional, just like some races are now. The memorable fights were exceptions - for example the Mansell/Senna battle in Monaco which TG had some clips of was quite possibly the best bit of driving by two F1 drivers you will ever see but it was not typical of the times (and could only happen in Monaco).
The Schumacher era was extremely detrimental to the popularity of F1. He dominated too much and the behaviour of the teams he drove for, both Benetton and Ferrari, soured many peoples' enthusiasm for the sport.
Once Schumacher retired, the whole affair seemed to open up again and it is currently the most interesting it has been since at least the mid 1990s. However, what happened yesterday shows that these "golden periods" are tenuous and could be undermined, if not by cheating, by bad sportsmanship.
Everyone likes a fair fight - and if it is perceived that the fighting is not being conducted fairly, then people start losing interest.
Once Schumacher retired, the whole affair seemed to open up again and it is currently the most interesting it has been since at least the mid 1990s. However, what happened yesterday shows that these "golden periods" are tenuous and could be undermined, if not by cheating, by bad sportsmanship.
Everyone likes a fair fight - and if it is perceived that the fighting is not being conducted fairly, then people start losing interest.
Edited by Eric Mc on Monday 26th July 09:42
EDLT said:
What we have now is very close racing compared to back in the good ol' days.
Hmmm, it feels like we have close racing, as in cars running close together at the finish, but sadly without much scope for overtaking. So it's more of a close procession than a close race...Maybe over-simplifying it, but there seems to be very little 'racing' going on at many GPs these days.
EDLT said:
DangerousMike said:
if you go through clips of the F1 now in 10 years time, it will look very exciting. This is because people pick the exciting clips from the past to show in retrospective features like that.
^That.Back in Senna's time it was quite common for the top cars to be separated by 30-40 seconds. What we have now is very close racing compared to back in the good ol' days.
norman156 said:
EDLT said:
DangerousMike said:
if you go through clips of the F1 now in 10 years time, it will look very exciting. This is because people pick the exciting clips from the past to show in retrospective features like that.
^That.Back in Senna's time it was quite common for the top cars to be separated by 30-40 seconds. What we have now is very close racing compared to back in the good ol' days.
The circuits were also more variable and the risk of going off of more consequence - so there was an edginess to watching the races.
I vidotaped almost EVERY GP from the start of the 1983 season right through to about 2002 and I can tell you, the races definitely ARE (because I still watch them) more exciting in the era 1983 to about 1995) than they were from 1996 to about 2007 (which coincides with both the corporatisation of F1 on a big scale and Michael Schumacher's period of dominance).
The past four years have seen a return to something resembling what I knew and loved in the past.
SRT77 said:
I think the biggest difference is just how corporate the drivers have become. Can you ever imagine Senna doing what Massa did yesterday.
The circumstances weren't the same (he was already champion), but yes, Senna followed instructions to give the lead to his team-mate (Gerhard Berger) at the 1991 Japanese Grand Prix.It certainly happened in older eras - especially since it was totally legit right up until 2002. In fact, in the 1950s it was legal to pull a driver in so he could pass his car over to the No.1 driver if the team leader's car was ailing or the No.2 driver had some other problem. Peter Collins handed his Ferrari to Fangio in one race and Tony Brooks handed his Vanwall to Stirling Moss.
What has happened in more recent years is that the driver being requested to let his team mate through has done so obviously and less than graciously in order to "make a point". What happened in 2002 between Barichello and Schumacher was so blatant (and also Schumacher did something similar at Indianaoplis, I think) that the FIA got a bit scared of the effect of team orders on the TV audience that they panicked and brought in a "No Team Orders" rule. This rule is actually almost impossible to enforce as long as the acquiescing driver gives way in a subtle way.
By making an issue of showing that you are not happy to give up the place, you end up landing your team in hot water.
What has happened in more recent years is that the driver being requested to let his team mate through has done so obviously and less than graciously in order to "make a point". What happened in 2002 between Barichello and Schumacher was so blatant (and also Schumacher did something similar at Indianaoplis, I think) that the FIA got a bit scared of the effect of team orders on the TV audience that they panicked and brought in a "No Team Orders" rule. This rule is actually almost impossible to enforce as long as the acquiescing driver gives way in a subtle way.
By making an issue of showing that you are not happy to give up the place, you end up landing your team in hot water.
EDLT said:
DangerousMike said:
if you go through clips of the F1 now in 10 years time, it will look very exciting. This is because people pick the exciting clips from the past to show in retrospective features like that.
^That.Back in Senna's time it was quite common for the top cars to be separated by 30-40 seconds. What we have now is very close racing compared to back in the good ol' days.
I can remember one International where we were in 11th spot overall. Half a day to go and the guy in 12th was about twelve or so minutes behind, thus it would have been easy to switch off and just potter. Of course you just don't, especially in those circs as you want to be in the top 10, sadly didn't make it, just not quick enough sadly.
I think Eric nailed it with his comment about the tracks.The old ones have been sanitised and the new ones are mostly from the pen of the same designer and frankly a bit dull.
Same with Le Man- sticking a chicane on the Mulsanne straight might have improved safety but If Captain Slow drive a Veyron at 259.11 in a straight line is it really necessary?
Same with Le Man- sticking a chicane on the Mulsanne straight might have improved safety but If Captain Slow drive a Veyron at 259.11 in a straight line is it really necessary?
Edited by sidewayz on Monday 26th July 17:45
Chuck328 said:
Hi all,
No need to say much about tonight's episode, plenty of accolades in other threads.
It did get me thinking though. I was in my early 20's when Senna was killed, just watching MB going through old clips of races gone by reminded me of how much more exciting motor racing could be. We have had plenty of debates about how staid the sport was becoming over the last few years. Although it's never going to happen, would F1 fans prefer to see cars in line with the types from that era? I guess A1 was perhaps the closest it got to that??
What do you think?
Saw a great sticker at Silverstone Classic at the weekend, 'I can remember when Sex was safe and Mortor Sport was dangerous'No need to say much about tonight's episode, plenty of accolades in other threads.
It did get me thinking though. I was in my early 20's when Senna was killed, just watching MB going through old clips of races gone by reminded me of how much more exciting motor racing could be. We have had plenty of debates about how staid the sport was becoming over the last few years. Although it's never going to happen, would F1 fans prefer to see cars in line with the types from that era? I guess A1 was perhaps the closest it got to that??
What do you think?
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