Discussion
Whilst thinking about F1, and the testing, development, etc. I got to thinking about what Brawn did with his 'own' team.
From the get go he built a team, won both championships and on what seemed like a low budget.
Why can't he do it now? Is merc the problem, were the cars he had from honda that good, does he care?
Harmless thinking from me - just wondering.
Thoughts?
D.
From the get go he built a team, won both championships and on what seemed like a low budget.
Why can't he do it now? Is merc the problem, were the cars he had from honda that good, does he care?
Harmless thinking from me - just wondering.
Thoughts?
D.
I think Brawn is the smartest man in the pitlane, (after Bernie perhaps), but you can't get it right everytime and this year they haven't. Plus, last year they were busy winning the championship and maybe were compromised in building this year's car.
I'm sure it will all be better next year.
I'm sure it will all be better next year.
in '08 honda were crap so stopped developing its car and started get '09 developed.
take '08 model out of wind tunnel and put '09 in wind tunnel.
mclaren and ferrari were fighting to the wire for championship (lewis vs massa)
so weren't developing '09's car.
last year JB had a great first 6 races with new car (double diffuser) then Red Bull were fast 2nd half of season, and championship went to the wire again. so brawn not developing '10 car. whereas RB, has much bigger budget so were able to do both.
take '08 model out of wind tunnel and put '09 in wind tunnel.
mclaren and ferrari were fighting to the wire for championship (lewis vs massa)
so weren't developing '09's car.
last year JB had a great first 6 races with new car (double diffuser) then Red Bull were fast 2nd half of season, and championship went to the wire again. so brawn not developing '10 car. whereas RB, has much bigger budget so were able to do both.
I think Brawn is the smartest man in the pitlane, (after Bernie perhaps), but you can't get it right everytime and this year they haven't. Plus, last year they were busy winning the championship and maybe were compromised in building this year's car.
I'm sure it will all be better next year.
I'm sure it will all be better next year.
Davie_GLA said:
From the get go he built a team
No, he inherited a team that already had a very competitive car designed and paid for by Honda (who decided to pull the plug at just the wrong moment). I have utmost respect for Brawn's achievements, but this really wasn't all his own doing by any means. He just got himself in the right place at the right time and was probably as surprised as everyone else at just how competitive the '09 "Honda" was.His past achievements at Bennies and Ferrari are much more impressive as he really was a main driver behind those successes. Last year he was simply lucky to have landed in such a great position.
In a nutshell….
Honda effectively funded Brawn’s campaign last year. This equated to a lot less than they would have to have forked out to have closed the company (paying redundancies, pensions, etc). The Brawn management team purchased the company for £1.
As stated on other posts, the 001 car started development way before any of the others and the first to be fully managed by Brawn himself. This helped them lay a marker down early on in the season that won them the championship, helped further by them spotting the split diffuser opportunity.
Although they had budget to compete, they didn’t have enough to develop the car through the season, which is why they effectively ‘stood still’.
Equally, they couldn’t commit fully to the 2010 car as they didn’t know if they’d have enough money to enter the championship.
Mercedes stepped in very late, by which time, they had inherited a ’10 design that lacked the level of technical development to make it a worthy player.
Despite all this, I think Michael Schumacher’s performance is this year, skewing perceptions of what is in fact, not a bad set of wheels given the circumstances. Nico Rosberg has hauled it to the podium twice, and a couple of 4th and 5th places are not to be sniffed at.
Strange as it sounds, MS is making a decent car look pants!
I actually think they will go backwards next year. When Mercedes were with McLaren, there was a level of respect and understanding about who does what and was always very much a case of McLaren building and running a team/car that Mercedes powered. By taking total control (or majority control which is effectively the same thing!), history dictates that the culture of a corporate giant prevails and is one that doesn’t sit well in a F1 team. There are exceptions but they are few in number and I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see RB on another extended fishing leave before hooking up with McLaren, Red Bull or even Ferrari again. Or even Williams!
Honda effectively funded Brawn’s campaign last year. This equated to a lot less than they would have to have forked out to have closed the company (paying redundancies, pensions, etc). The Brawn management team purchased the company for £1.
As stated on other posts, the 001 car started development way before any of the others and the first to be fully managed by Brawn himself. This helped them lay a marker down early on in the season that won them the championship, helped further by them spotting the split diffuser opportunity.
Although they had budget to compete, they didn’t have enough to develop the car through the season, which is why they effectively ‘stood still’.
Equally, they couldn’t commit fully to the 2010 car as they didn’t know if they’d have enough money to enter the championship.
Mercedes stepped in very late, by which time, they had inherited a ’10 design that lacked the level of technical development to make it a worthy player.
Despite all this, I think Michael Schumacher’s performance is this year, skewing perceptions of what is in fact, not a bad set of wheels given the circumstances. Nico Rosberg has hauled it to the podium twice, and a couple of 4th and 5th places are not to be sniffed at.
Strange as it sounds, MS is making a decent car look pants!
I actually think they will go backwards next year. When Mercedes were with McLaren, there was a level of respect and understanding about who does what and was always very much a case of McLaren building and running a team/car that Mercedes powered. By taking total control (or majority control which is effectively the same thing!), history dictates that the culture of a corporate giant prevails and is one that doesn’t sit well in a F1 team. There are exceptions but they are few in number and I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see RB on another extended fishing leave before hooking up with McLaren, Red Bull or even Ferrari again. Or even Williams!
When he joined Honda in 2008, did he not restructure and get some key people in? Admittedly the budget came from Honda but he was ultimately responsible and in charge of developing the 2009 car?
ETA - ignore me, this has already been mentioned.
ETA - ignore me, this has already been mentioned.
Edited by The Milfman on Wednesday 18th August 14:04
uktrailmonster said:
No, he inherited a team that already had a very competitive car designed and paid for by Honda (who decided to pull the plug at just the wrong moment).
Don't get me wrong, but while Brawn effectively inherited the team in the financial sense, he was at the helm of the Honda team for the entire development of the 2009 car. It was him and his team that produced that race winning car.Interesting thoughts here, but what about this bit of pondering thrown into the "what if" pile:
What if Honda had stayed in the sport, would they have still won both championships last year, would they have developed the car throughout the season aswell as developing a 2010 car, and more importantly would that 2010 car have been a contender?
I'd like to think the answer is yes
What if Honda had stayed in the sport, would they have still won both championships last year, would they have developed the car throughout the season aswell as developing a 2010 car, and more importantly would that 2010 car have been a contender?
I'd like to think the answer is yes
Gillet said:
Interesting thoughts here, but what about this bit of pondering thrown into the "what if" pile:
What if Honda had stayed in the sport, would they have still won both championships last year, would they have developed the car throughout the season aswell as developing a 2010 car, and more importantly would that 2010 car have been a contender?
I'd like to think the answer is yes
I seem to recall the main problem with Honda was the engine. IIRC, Brawn took the company over on the condition that he didn't have to use the Honda unit.What if Honda had stayed in the sport, would they have still won both championships last year, would they have developed the car throughout the season aswell as developing a 2010 car, and more importantly would that 2010 car have been a contender?
I'd like to think the answer is yes
StevieBee said:
I seem to recall the main problem with Honda was the engine. IIRC, Brawn took the company over on the condition that he didn't have to use the Honda unit.
I'm not sure that can be true - Honda didn't want to offer the engine and thus Brawn's double diffuser was compromised for the whole year by the late switch to Mercedes engine. ISTR Brawn elected not to use the Mercedes gearbox though, but stand to be corrected on that point.uktrailmonster said:
Last year he was simply lucky to have landed in such a great position.
You know what they say......you make your own luck!
Or, I forgot who actually said this, but:
'The harder I work, the luckier I get'
Surely he's work bloody hard?!
I would be interested to know the ins and outs of all the dealings that went on...but we will never REALLY know!
Cheers
The Moose
Gaz. said:
Honda witheld the engines, which is why Witmarsh brokered a deal with Mercedes to provide the engines for the car.
IMO had Honda stayed, the car would have been even faster, and for longer though the season as the car would have been developed as the RedBull looked like it was catching up.
Ofcourse the next 'what if' is would Rubens be champion instead of Jensen had Honda stayed.
I'll forget you said that last bit, how dare you suggest such a thing IMO had Honda stayed, the car would have been even faster, and for longer though the season as the car would have been developed as the RedBull looked like it was catching up.
Ofcourse the next 'what if' is would Rubens be champion instead of Jensen had Honda stayed.
The rest is pretty much as I thought though, the car would still have won the championship/s and they would have had the money there last year to keep it the best car, and develop it for this season. I'm pretty sure this years Mercedes is last years Brawn but with a couple of extra afterthough bits stuck on.
didnt brawn say in an interview also that he basically left the design guys alone and let them get on with designing the car as he was too busy sorting out the company? yes he may of brought some key technical guys in but he said it was the design team who did it. i get the feeling as pointed out big manufacturer meddling with the design instead of letting the designers do what they wanted to get it to work.
Edited by TheArchitect on Thursday 19th August 13:25
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