If Alonso does win the WDC by cheating
Discussion
Even if he does win it by a margin of 7 points(the points difference between 1st & second), he won't have 'won by cheating' because not all of his points have been won under controversial circumstances. OK so in this example the winning margin is the same as those 7 ill gotten (as seen by some) points but you could just as easily say if vettel hadn't had the spark plug issue in Bahrain he wouldn't have won the WDC or if a Ferrari mechanic had fluffed his wheel nut then he wouldn't have won Monza and therefore the WDC. You can't just put your finger on an incident you don't like and say that it's that and that alone that has won the WDC. You could just as easily say that stacking it at Monaco means he WON'T win it.
See what I mean?
Also, I don't think *he* cheated in Germany, it's Ferrari that concocted it (although they were clever enough to leave no proof in the eyes of the FIA although they did make it blatently obvious) and equally it was Massa that got out of the throttle.
EDIT and to answer your question more directly, no I think the other teams will sit back as they won't want to be dragged through the mud like Fez were. The FIA spoke, the teams would be right to say they need clarification but I think that will come at the end of the year. Only 4 (3) races away.
See what I mean?
Also, I don't think *he* cheated in Germany, it's Ferrari that concocted it (although they were clever enough to leave no proof in the eyes of the FIA although they did make it blatently obvious) and equally it was Massa that got out of the throttle.
EDIT and to answer your question more directly, no I think the other teams will sit back as they won't want to be dragged through the mud like Fez were. The FIA spoke, the teams would be right to say they need clarification but I think that will come at the end of the year. Only 4 (3) races away.
Edited by jains15 on Sunday 26th September 21:13
stephen300o said:
What cheating? not the position change surely, everyone does that, like Kovalainen giving way to Hamilton the other year.
Just because Ferrari get a couple of wins you lot get all sulky.
everyone brings up this kovalainen and hamilton thing... but it is not comparable. At the point they swapped positions, kovalainen was a pitstop behind hamilton so was not directly racing him... he just had track position. It is totally different to switch two drivers who are racing for the lead..Just because Ferrari get a couple of wins you lot get all sulky.
DangerousMike said:
stephen300o said:
What cheating? not the position change surely, everyone does that, like Kovalainen giving way to Hamilton the other year.
Just because Ferrari get a couple of wins you lot get all sulky.
everyone brings up this kovalainen and hamilton thing... but it is not comparable. At the point they swapped positions, kovalainen was a pitstop behind hamilton so was not directly racing him... he just had track position. It is totally different to switch two drivers who are racing for the lead..Just because Ferrari get a couple of wins you lot get all sulky.
stephen300o said:
What cheating? not the position change surely, everyone does that, like Kovalainen giving way to Hamilton the other year.
Just because Ferrari get a couple of wins you lot get all sulky.
Quite.Just because Ferrari get a couple of wins you lot get all sulky.
Plus another faux pas from Hamilton yesterday, seems to have knocked a few noses out of joint.
deadslow said:
DangerousMike said:
stephen300o said:
What cheating? not the position change surely, everyone does that, like Kovalainen giving way to Hamilton the other year.
Just because Ferrari get a couple of wins you lot get all sulky.
everyone brings up this kovalainen and hamilton thing... but it is not comparable. At the point they swapped positions, kovalainen was a pitstop behind hamilton so was not directly racing him... he just had track position. It is totally different to switch two drivers who are racing for the lead..Just because Ferrari get a couple of wins you lot get all sulky.
What I find more telling is that if Webber wins WDC, he will have won it on his own racing entirely and most importantly, beating his team-mate, his strongest rival.
Same goes if Vettel wins.
Can't quite say the same about Alonso. To think how much more ahead Vettel or Webber could be in the championship if they had similar team-orders in place... At least 10 points on Webbers behalf and Vettel potentially 25...
The thing is, with team-orders in place - you'll never know.
Same goes if Vettel wins.
Can't quite say the same about Alonso. To think how much more ahead Vettel or Webber could be in the championship if they had similar team-orders in place... At least 10 points on Webbers behalf and Vettel potentially 25...
The thing is, with team-orders in place - you'll never know.
What cheating?
Does he have a direct link to Massa's throttle or something?
Webber and Vettel have had a superior car and should be miles ahead in the points by now. Alonso didn't win yesterday for having a faster car, he won for being the fastest driver. I know people dislike him here, but yesterdays performance was that of a worthey 2010 world championship.
Does he have a direct link to Massa's throttle or something?
Webber and Vettel have had a superior car and should be miles ahead in the points by now. Alonso didn't win yesterday for having a faster car, he won for being the fastest driver. I know people dislike him here, but yesterdays performance was that of a worthey 2010 world championship.
nothing wrong with team orders its part of the sport. the people who always jump up and down about it are either partisan diehards who only want their driver to win or pissed off punters who feel cheated out of their winnings. Banning team orders was a stupid knee jerk rule, I remember when McLaren had their one-two here in melbourne and the way people who;
1. didn't know anything about the sport or its history
2. didn't care about it either
3. but all had money on one or the other McLarens cause they were a sure thing
carried on like stuck pigs about how they were cheated made me laugh. The teams spend millions on these cars, if they want one driver to win instead of the other than so be it. If you don't like it spend your own money and start your own team.
1. didn't know anything about the sport or its history
2. didn't care about it either
3. but all had money on one or the other McLarens cause they were a sure thing
carried on like stuck pigs about how they were cheated made me laugh. The teams spend millions on these cars, if they want one driver to win instead of the other than so be it. If you don't like it spend your own money and start your own team.
I think it will be a sour taste in the mouths for a lot of people.
I think there is a general acceptance that team orders happen and people can accept that. What I think is annoying most people is the context surrouding it. Alonso effectively "bullied" Massa by pulling rank in a race they were at the time equal in. To compound that Ferrari then showed a complete mess of handling the aftermath and that annoyed folk aswell. Finally and by no means least was the personal aspect of the redemptive story of Massa. It was by far his best race of the year, it was a year to the race almost since the accident and here he was again mixing it with the best. The public like a story, they like a narrative, esp a zero to hero story and Alonso fixed it to deny him.
That annoys a lot of people. Cheating no, bullying yes.
I think there is a general acceptance that team orders happen and people can accept that. What I think is annoying most people is the context surrouding it. Alonso effectively "bullied" Massa by pulling rank in a race they were at the time equal in. To compound that Ferrari then showed a complete mess of handling the aftermath and that annoyed folk aswell. Finally and by no means least was the personal aspect of the redemptive story of Massa. It was by far his best race of the year, it was a year to the race almost since the accident and here he was again mixing it with the best. The public like a story, they like a narrative, esp a zero to hero story and Alonso fixed it to deny him.
That annoys a lot of people. Cheating no, bullying yes.
the thing that rankles about the ferrari team orders is their total denial of it in the face of its total transparency to everyone watching. That is why the fact they didn't get further penalised in Paris is so galling. They cheated, got caught, punished (lightly) and continued to deny it. It's a bit of an insult to the intelligence of anyone watching.
It may have been Massas best race, but just because he got ahead at the start, doesnt kake up for being slower than Alonso. He was holding Alonso up...
Regarding the bullying, fair game I say. I think it was Sepang, where he nailed Massa into the pits but this was because again, he was much faster. Even with a dodgy clutch/gearbox later in the race, having to manually select downshifts he was STILL faster than Massa.
If youre that much faster/better than your teammate, I think you have to put yourself first and he gets my admiration and respect for that.
Regarding the bullying, fair game I say. I think it was Sepang, where he nailed Massa into the pits but this was because again, he was much faster. Even with a dodgy clutch/gearbox later in the race, having to manually select downshifts he was STILL faster than Massa.
If youre that much faster/better than your teammate, I think you have to put yourself first and he gets my admiration and respect for that.
DangerousMike said:
the thing that rankles about the ferrari team orders is their total denial of it in the face of its total transparency to everyone watching. That is why the fact they didn't get further penalised in Paris is so galling. They cheated, got caught, punished (lightly) and continued to deny it. It's a bit of an insult to the intelligence of anyone watching.
Perhaps the fact that they used Mclaren's 'fuel saving' scam in Turkey to show that the other teams are doing it too, just not so openly, swayed the FIA?And, to the vast majority of those watching, especially those with a reasonable and long understanding of the sport, such as it is, it makes not a jot of difference. Have the viewing figures fallen since Germany?
Finally, it has to be said that Ferrari really needed to do this, the way Massa has been performing, or rather underperforming. At least the other teams have 2 drivers in the frame.
Phil-CH said:
What I find more telling is that if Webber wins WDC, he will have won it on his own racing entirely and most importantly, beating his team-mate, his strongest rival.
Same goes if Vettel wins.
Can't quite say the same about Alonso. To think how much more ahead Vettel or Webber could be in the championship if they had similar team-orders in place... At least 10 points on Webbers behalf and Vettel potentially 25...
The thing is, with team-orders in place - you'll never know.
Errrr in Monza Vettel suddenly had a random problem so had to slow, Webber goes past and then Vettel starts setting fastest laps!!! How is that not the same as Ferrari?Same goes if Vettel wins.
Can't quite say the same about Alonso. To think how much more ahead Vettel or Webber could be in the championship if they had similar team-orders in place... At least 10 points on Webbers behalf and Vettel potentially 25...
The thing is, with team-orders in place - you'll never know.
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