Touring car driven in the 'real world'

[entropy]

You've probably heard how a race cars can be so unlike the ones you drive on the road

Here's a practical demonstration from Top Gear Australia, driving a Ford V8 Supercar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxFQDySQEU4

[EDLT]

It seems very highly strung, I thought 600hp Ford/GM V8s were supposed cope on the road quite well.

[FasterFreddy]

An Australian V8 Supercar isn't really comparable to a Touring car. They are pretty much a spaceframe chassis with some panels tacked to make it look stock whereas a Touring car is usually an original manufacturer's shell with a cage built into it.

[davepoth]

FasterFreddy said:

An Australian V8 Supercar isn't really comparable to a Touring car. They are pretty much a spaceframe chassis with some panels tacked to make it look stock whereas a Touring car is usually an original manufacturer's shell with a cage built into it.

No.

C 6. BODYWORK
The following Rules apply to the approved bodyshell, including bodywork:
C 6.1 Bodywork - General
6.1.1 All bodywork and bodyshell panels/components must remain unmodified and must
be of the same shape, material and thickness as the Family of a Vehicle on which the
V8 Supercar is based


http://www.v8supercars.com.au/Portals/v8/RadEditor...

[FasterFreddy]

davepoth said:

FasterFreddy said:

An Australian V8 Supercar isn't really comparable to a Touring car. They are pretty much a spaceframe chassis with some panels tacked to make it look stock whereas a Touring car is usually an original manufacturer's shell with a cage built into it.

No.

C 6. BODYWORK
The following Rules apply to the approved bodyshell, including bodywork:
C 6.1 Bodywork - General
6.1.1 All bodywork and bodyshell panels/components must remain unmodified and must
be of the same shape, material and thickness as the Family of a Vehicle on which the
V8 Supercar is based


http://www.v8supercars.com.au/Portals/v8/RadEditor...

Have you seen one being built? If you had, I think you'd understand that the rigidity and strength of the Aussie V8s come from what the panels are tacked onto (often pop-riveted or spot-welded to make them easier to repair) and that is effectively a spaceframe. The 'Car of the Future' will be even more so:



I'd like to think the accepted definition of a 'Touring Car' is an original chassis (shell) taken from the manufacturer and modified to make it more suitable to race by seam-welding and building a multi-point cage into it. Some Touring Car series are getting further and further away from this now, of course, but I don't really think you can compare a contemporary V8 Supercar with it's road-going equivalent (unless your objective is to fill 15 minutes on a Top Gear show).

[davepoth]

Which bit of the V8 Supercar Regulations saying that the car must use all of the unmodified production car panels and components are you not understanding?

It may well be that they take it to pieces and reassemble it around the rollcage, but that's just sensible. (and allowed under any touring car regulations) It's not a spaceframe, as you can see from the front wings of the above picture. You wouldn't use the inner wings on a spaceframe car.

Edited by davepoth on Wednesday 29th December 18:28

[andygo]

davepoth said:

Which bit of the V8 Supercar Regulations saying that the car must use all of the unmodified production car panels and components are you not understanding?

It may well be that they take it to pieces and reassemble it around the rollcage, but that's just sensible. (and allowed under any touring car regulations) It's not a spaceframe, as you can see from the front wings of the above picture. You wouldn't use the inner wings on a spaceframe car.

Edited by davepoth on Wednesday 29th December 18:28

You would if the regs said so...

And they dont build WRC cars, or afaik, any other comparable saloon cars in such a manner.

[Scuffers]

davepoth said:

Which bit of the V8 Supercar Regulations saying that the car must use all of the unmodified production car panels and components are you not understanding?

It may well be that they take it to pieces and reassemble it around the rollcage, but that's just sensible. (and allowed under any touring car regulations) It's not a spaceframe, as you can see from the front wings of the above picture. You wouldn't use the inner wings on a spaceframe car.

you clearly have never seen one then?

all the pick-up points are on the spaceframe, the body panels are literally just hung on to cover it all up.

[FasterFreddy]

Scuffers said:

davepoth said:

Which bit of the V8 Supercar Regulations saying that the car must use all of the unmodified production car panels and components are you not understanding?

It may well be that they take it to pieces and reassemble it around the rollcage, but that's just sensible. (and allowed under any touring car regulations) It's not a spaceframe, as you can see from the front wings of the above picture. You wouldn't use the inner wings on a spaceframe car.

you clearly have never seen one then?

all the pick-up points are on the spaceframe, the body panels are literally just hung on to cover it all up.

Thank you.

[Life Saab Itch]

andygo said:

davepoth said:

Which bit of the V8 Supercar Regulations saying that the car must use all of the unmodified production car panels and components are you not understanding?

It may well be that they take it to pieces and reassemble it around the rollcage, but that's just sensible. (and allowed under any touring car regulations) It's not a spaceframe, as you can see from the front wings of the above picture. You wouldn't use the inner wings on a spaceframe car.

Edited by davepoth on Wednesday 29th December 18:28

You would if the regs said so...

And they dont build WRC cars, or afaik, any other comparable saloon cars in such a manner.

Subarus used to arrive at Prodrive in a flat pack. The cage was built, then the body was put on around it and seam welded.

[williamp]

very interesting piece nonetheless.

[stevieb]

Life Saab Itch said:

andygo said:

davepoth said:

Which bit of the V8 Supercar Regulations saying that the car must use all of the unmodified production car panels and components are you not understanding?

It may well be that they take it to pieces and reassemble it around the rollcage, but that's just sensible. (and allowed under any touring car regulations) It's not a spaceframe, as you can see from the front wings of the above picture. You wouldn't use the inner wings on a spaceframe car.

Edited by davepoth on Wednesday 29th December 18:28

You would if the regs said so...

And they dont build WRC cars, or afaik, any other comparable saloon cars in such a manner.

Subarus used to arrive at Prodrive in a flat pack. The cage was built, then the body was put on around it and seam welded.

What a load of rubbish. The cars they used were JDM spec C variants of the impreza. They were not flat packed.
The vid below shoes how the US spec rally a was prepared, these were trained to prep the car by prodrive technicians who prepped the cars for the WRC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8irtop-4dbo&fea...

Edited by stevieb on Thursday 30th December 10:31

[elwe]

What is with the past tense? When I was at Prodrive in August they were still building scoobys to the same specs, for privateers and wealthy arabs. Some are space frames, with body panels hung on for show, some are seam welded original monocoques. It depends what the customer/customer's race series wants.

[Ahonen]

davepoth said:

Which bit of the V8 Supercar Regulations saying that the car must use all of the unmodified production car panels and components are you not understanding?

It may well be that they take it to pieces and reassemble it around the rollcage, but that's just sensible. (and allowed under any touring car regulations) It's not a spaceframe, as you can see from the front wings of the above picture. You wouldn't use the inner wings on a spaceframe car.

Saucer of milk for the bloke who doesn't understand how the minds of motorsport engineers work.

[davepoth]

Ahonen said:

davepoth said:

Which bit of the V8 Supercar Regulations saying that the car must use all of the unmodified production car panels and components are you not understanding?

It may well be that they take it to pieces and reassemble it around the rollcage, but that's just sensible. (and allowed under any touring car regulations) It's not a spaceframe, as you can see from the front wings of the above picture. You wouldn't use the inner wings on a spaceframe car.

Saucer of milk for the bloke who doesn't understand how the minds of motorsport engineers work.

ahem.

I do understand. the rules don't see any difference between making a "roll cage" so massive and structural that you have to put the car back together around it, and building a roll cage inside the shell, but it does still have to use the production bodyshell.

This is a massive difference to NASCAR (which is what it was likened to above), where the cars only have stickers on them to make them look at all like production cars.

So in fact, my original point stands. V8 Supercars are in fact massively more like production cars than NASCAR.

I'll take my milk full fat please.

[Scuffers]

davepoth said:

Ahonen said:

davepoth said:

Which bit of the V8 Supercar Regulations saying that the car must use all of the unmodified production car panels and components are you not understanding?

It may well be that they take it to pieces and reassemble it around the rollcage, but that's just sensible. (and allowed under any touring car regulations) It's not a spaceframe, as you can see from the front wings of the above picture. You wouldn't use the inner wings on a spaceframe car.

Saucer of milk for the bloke who doesn't understand how the minds of motorsport engineers work.

ahem.

I do understand. the rules don't see any difference between making a "roll cage" so massive and structural that you have to put the car back together around it, and building a roll cage inside the shell, but it does still have to use the production bodyshell.

This is a massive difference to NASCAR (which is what it was likened to above), where the cars only have stickers on them to make them look at all like production cars.

So in fact, my original point stands. V8 Supercars are in fact massively more like production cars than NASCAR.

I'll take my milk full fat please.

no, your point is still wrong.

building a roll cage into a shell and then using it to re-enforce the hard points is not the same as building a space-frame and then tacking body panels to it.

V8's do not use anything like the same hard points as the 'road' cars, for example, they have driver-adjustable roll-centres, try doing that with the road car's setup/hard points.

[davepoth]

Scuffers said:

no, your point is still wrong.

building a roll cage into a shell and then using it to re-enforce the hard points is not the same as building a space-frame and then tacking body panels to it.

V8's do not use anything like the same hard points as the 'road' cars, for example, they have driver-adjustable roll-centres, try doing that with the road car's setup/hard points.

No, but my point is that what they do is build a "cage" that is "too extensive to be fitted through the doors" that is more of a hybrid cage/frame but still considered to be a cage under the rules. The rules, as I have linked, show that the car must still be the production bodyshell with a cage, rather than a silhouette racer. Here's a bit more of it, you can always read them at the link above if you like.

6.1.5 Strengthening of the fully sprung components of the chassis and bodywork is allowed
provided that the material used follows the original shape and is in contact with it.
The reinforcements must not create hollow sections and must not allow two separate
parts to be joined together to form one. Except as specifically permitted in these
Rules, no body cavities may be filled with any substance that is deemed, by the
CTM, to increase the rigidity of the Car.
6.1.6 Weld flanges may be removed from the front chassis rails and the joint butt welded.
6.1.7 Any non-metallic insulating, sound deadening or sealing material may be removed.
6.1.8 It is permitted to make the minimum modifications to the production bodyshell in and
around the rear axle assembly only in order to provide sufficient clearance for the
rear axle assembly to achieve maximum wheel travel.
6.1.9 It is permitted to reinforce each rear chassis rail with a single tube of a maximum size
of 30mm OD x 1.5mm wall thickness, extending from the chassis rail to the roll cage,
subject to no part of such reinforcement extending rearward of a plane located at X =
-1450.0 mm.



As for the suspension, V8 Supercars' Technical Regs beg to differ. 20mm vertical change was less than I had on my E30 BMW when the bushes were knackered.

C 9.2 Suspension Pivot Points
9.2.1
For the All Cars the suspension pivot points on the body/chassis may only be
relocated up to 20mm vertically from the approved point. This point must be used as
the pivot point for the suspension (eg, no extension or relocation of this part of the
suspension is permitted).
9.2.2
It is not permitted to use devices which vary the motion ratio on any suspension
links unless specifically allowed by these Rules.

and

9.5.2 Any device which allows the front or rear roll centre of a Car to be altered or adjusted
from the cockpit is forbidden. (my emphasis)
9.5.3 Any device or system which does, or has the capacity to adjust the ride height of a
moving Car is forbidden.

Edited by davepoth on Saturday 1st January 11:30

Edited by davepoth on Saturday 1st January 11:30

Edited by davepoth on Saturday 1st January 11:31

[touring fan]

TVR Moneypit said:

I'm guessing that you got these rules from the CAMS website? Which leaves me a little confused as to why all the teams have cockpit adjustable roll centre height to suit different weather conditions, fuel load and sometimes even tyre compound?

888 are always a pleasure to listen to during pitstops for the concise info they give their drivers. "Cold tyres Jamie, cold tyres. Full tank of fuel so adjust roll centre to setting number one" for example.

Sounds like you are confusing it with the driver adjusting the roll-bars or have misheard/misunderstood the radio communication.

The pit crew would have either told him to adjust the roll-bar to a certain setting, or have told him that they have adjusted the roll-centre to a certain setting.

Most definately the drivers don't and can't adjust the roll-centre from the cockpit.
Its always and only adjusted by the pit crews during a pit stop.

[davepoth]

TVR Moneypit said:

davepoth said:

[




As for the suspension, V8 Supercars' Technical Regs beg to differ.



9.5.2 Any device which allows the front or rear roll centre of a Car to be altered or adjusted
from the cockpit is forbidden. (my emphasis)
9.5.3 Any device or system which does, or has the capacity to adjust the ride height of a
moving Car is forbidden.

I'm guessing that you got these rules from the CAMS website? Which leaves me a little confused as to why all the teams have cockpit adjustable roll centre height to suit different weather conditions, fuel load and sometimes even tyre compound?

888 are always a pleasure to listen to during pitstops for the concise info they give their drivers. "Cold tyres Jamie, cold tyres. Full tank of fuel so adjust roll centre to setting number one" for example.

I'll post the link again.

http://www.v8supercars.com.au/Portals/v8/RadEditor...

[touring fan]

Scuffers said:

they have driver-adjustable roll-centres, try doing that with the road car's setup/hard points.

You were doing OK until that statement undid some of your credibility....;-)

The roll-centre is certainly NOT driver adjustable. Its adjusted by the pit crew during a pit stop. The driver can't do it from the cockpit.

Edited by touring fan on Sunday 2nd January 13:19