How to find decent roads & passes in Europe?
Discussion
Planning a eurohoon this summer that will take us south through France, into northern Italy & up into Switzerland (verbier).
Obviously I've heard of the wonders of route napoleons & alpine passes etc but is there a website or book which has a description & maps of where to find the best?
Or alternatively do any PH'rs have any recommendations on which to do & where to stay on route?
Obviously I've heard of the wonders of route napoleons & alpine passes etc but is there a website or book which has a description & maps of where to find the best?
Or alternatively do any PH'rs have any recommendations on which to do & where to stay on route?
We drive to S France twice a year. Mid route is often Reims which is a great place for an overnight. Plenty of hotels with garaging if you need the security. Be sure to catch the enigmatic old race track just west of the city.
If you have more legs, go further south into Champagne country. In summer we often carry on to overnight at Les Riceys just past Troyes. It's a gorgeous small town at the southern end of Champagne country. From there, pick a route through any of the departmental roads south until Beaune. They are an absolute delight amongst vineyards, forests, hills and gulleys with maybe a handful of cars an hour to interrupt your driving bliss. I've driven them all and there's not a bad one to be had. Massive sightlines and wonderful road surfaces. At Beaune you can pick up the autoroute again.
This will give you a flavour of the real France instead of piling relentlessly along the autoroutes. Doesn't lose much time, either.
If you have more legs, go further south into Champagne country. In summer we often carry on to overnight at Les Riceys just past Troyes. It's a gorgeous small town at the southern end of Champagne country. From there, pick a route through any of the departmental roads south until Beaune. They are an absolute delight amongst vineyards, forests, hills and gulleys with maybe a handful of cars an hour to interrupt your driving bliss. I've driven them all and there's not a bad one to be had. Massive sightlines and wonderful road surfaces. At Beaune you can pick up the autoroute again.
This will give you a flavour of the real France instead of piling relentlessly along the autoroutes. Doesn't lose much time, either.
You may guess from this link that I quite like doing this kind of thing! -
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
For Verbier just head North out of Chamonix and do one of my FAVOURITE passes Col De Forclaz and head for Martigny and Sion / Verbier etc
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
For Verbier just head North out of Chamonix and do one of my FAVOURITE passes Col De Forclaz and head for Martigny and Sion / Verbier etc
Have you put a plan together yet?
AND have you found another R26.R yet? :-)
I normally do my first Alpine drive to Nice on the last weekend of May but doesn`t look like I will be going to the GP this year AND I think a lot of the passes will be opening a bit late due to HUGE amounts of snow this year!
AND have you found another R26.R yet? :-)
I normally do my first Alpine drive to Nice on the last weekend of May but doesn`t look like I will be going to the GP this year AND I think a lot of the passes will be opening a bit late due to HUGE amounts of snow this year!
don logan said:
Have you put a plan together yet?
AND have you found another R26.R yet? :-)
I normally do my first Alpine drive to Nice on the last weekend of May but doesn`t look like I will be going to the GP this year AND I think a lot of the passes will be opening a bit late due to HUGE amounts of snow this year!
AND have you found another R26.R yet? :-)
I normally do my first Alpine drive to Nice on the last weekend of May but doesn`t look like I will be going to the GP this year AND I think a lot of the passes will be opening a bit late due to HUGE amounts of snow this year!
hi don, unfortunately I didn't get another R sorted out so went & bought a new mini GP instead-great little car as well 
Ok guys, here's the itinery-the ferries are booked as is the hotel in verbier but anything else can probably will change;
monday 5th august honeymoon starts
Ferry
tuesday 6th august
Bruges to Luxembourg 3 hrs 30 min 190 miles
Luxembourg hotel
wednesday 7th august
Luxembourg to Strasbourg 2 hour 40 mins 160 mile
Strasbourg hotel
thursday 8th august
Strasbourg hotel
friday 9th august
Strasbourg to Lake Constance 130 miles 3 hours
Lake Constance hotel
saturday 10th august
Lake Constance to chur
Chur hotel
sunday 11th august
Chur to verbier 5 hour 30 mins 170 miles
check in at "the lodge" 4pm verbier
monday 12th august verbier
tuesday 13th august verbier
wednesday 14th august check out of "the lodge" verbier 11am
Verbier to Roquebrune-Cap-Martin 6 hours 320 mile
thursday 15th august
Roquebrune-Cap-Martin
friday 16th august
Monaco
saturday 17th august
Grenoble
sunday 18th august
Bruges
monday 19th august
Bruges
tuesday 20th august
Ferry
wednesday 21st august back home
Hello again LOH!
Do you particularly fancy the Luxembourg stop / route?
Also, how are you getting from Verbier to Roquebrune?
My choice would be Verbier to Val D'Isere via the Grande Bernard and Petite St Betnard passes (Val is ok in August, there is actually some life) and stay in Hotel Ormelune, next day you could do the Col De Iseran, Telegraph and Galibier which will bring you to the top of the Col De Lauteret which will lead you to Briancon, if you want an unusual but quiet experience push a bit further to Mont Dauphin which is a medieval town with a moat, drawbridge and arsenal! (But be prepared for a quiet night at Hotel L'Echaugette)
Next day you could do Col de Vars and Col de Bonette (highest paved road in Europe) which if you continue down the same road will lead you to Nice where you would head for Roquebrune!
I've done 14k miles in my R26R and almost all but about 1,500 have been done on those roads or getting to and from those roads!
Don't get hung up on the Route Napoleon thing, particularly in August!
Their is also an interesting Chateau in a place called Jausiers between the col de vars and col de bonette that you can stay at!
I'm sure I don't need to tell you but some good pads would be a great idea and maybe a set of Yokohama AD08s as they deal with water pretty well and are VERY good in those conditions! (Wear rate is ridiculously good too considering the grip
)
Your Mini should be very cheeky out there!
Do you particularly fancy the Luxembourg stop / route?
Also, how are you getting from Verbier to Roquebrune?
My choice would be Verbier to Val D'Isere via the Grande Bernard and Petite St Betnard passes (Val is ok in August, there is actually some life) and stay in Hotel Ormelune, next day you could do the Col De Iseran, Telegraph and Galibier which will bring you to the top of the Col De Lauteret which will lead you to Briancon, if you want an unusual but quiet experience push a bit further to Mont Dauphin which is a medieval town with a moat, drawbridge and arsenal! (But be prepared for a quiet night at Hotel L'Echaugette)
Next day you could do Col de Vars and Col de Bonette (highest paved road in Europe) which if you continue down the same road will lead you to Nice where you would head for Roquebrune!
I've done 14k miles in my R26R and almost all but about 1,500 have been done on those roads or getting to and from those roads!
Don't get hung up on the Route Napoleon thing, particularly in August!
Their is also an interesting Chateau in a place called Jausiers between the col de vars and col de bonette that you can stay at!
I'm sure I don't need to tell you but some good pads would be a great idea and maybe a set of Yokohama AD08s as they deal with water pretty well and are VERY good in those conditions! (Wear rate is ridiculously good too considering the grip
)
Your Mini should be very cheeky out there!
Many thanks don
Few answers to a few questions....
Luxembourg is not necessary as I have merely been looking at a map & see where looks interesting! If there's better places to go then just suggest whatever you think. As I said verbier is per booked so it must revolve around those dates & I'd love one night in Monaco.
The journey from verbier to roquebrune, I thought skip down te autoroute to the coast for speed to get us down to the coast of the med for a nice drive along the sea. Again roquebrune might not be the final destination but laura would probably like at least one day on the beach!
As for the car, I'm sure the mini will be fine but I may change the khumo's as te tyre roar is a bit of an issue at speed/long distances as we found on our Easter Spa/nurburgring/Brugge trip.
In fact I've been hunting the classifieds as I fancy getting a little old alfa spider for some top down retro fun
Few answers to a few questions....
Luxembourg is not necessary as I have merely been looking at a map & see where looks interesting! If there's better places to go then just suggest whatever you think. As I said verbier is per booked so it must revolve around those dates & I'd love one night in Monaco.
The journey from verbier to roquebrune, I thought skip down te autoroute to the coast for speed to get us down to the coast of the med for a nice drive along the sea. Again roquebrune might not be the final destination but laura would probably like at least one day on the beach!
As for the car, I'm sure the mini will be fine but I may change the khumo's as te tyre roar is a bit of an issue at speed/long distances as we found on our Easter Spa/nurburgring/Brugge trip.
In fact I've been hunting the classifieds as I fancy getting a little old alfa spider for some top down retro fun
Hi!
I know you really don't fancy longs slogs BUT have you considered Bruges to Lausanne or somewhere similar on Lake Geneva? (Chateau D'Ouchy is a nice place to wake up with a view over the lake)
You could spend 2 nights there instead of stops on the way or slowly head towards Chur and Verbier.
Does Laura enjoy mountain passes too or are they more about you enjoying the driving?
If so then maybe you should take the Autoroute to the south on your way down to Roquebrune (take a look at Theoule Sur Mer too) but do the mountains on the way back, there is something so depressing about heading home that is only made worse by doing it on the Autoroute!
Come home by driving to Nice, turn left and head for Briancon via col de bonette then Vars, either stop at the spooky medieval fort town or Briancon where there is a cheap hotel Auberge de la paix and a great restaurant Le Gavroche.
Day after you can either do the reverse of what I suggested (Galibier) or you can head north out of Briancon towards Oulx in Italy and head back down the Maurienne valley to Albertville, them head over Megeve or the Col De Petite St Bernard and either stay in Courmayeur or through the tunnel in Chamonix (Hotel Faucigny or Hotel Grande Alpes and eat in La Calleche (I think it's called) spend the day bumming around and take the cable car to the top of Mont Blanc if you've never done it before!
Hope that helps!
ALFA SPYDER?? :-) I've only driven a later one with the painted bumpers, EVERYTHING is strange, gearshift, driving position, the sensation that the body needs tp be screwed to something more solid, BUT nothing else looks like an Alfa Spyder does it!!
You and I have owned quite a few of the same cars, have you looked at Fiat 124s? I nearly bought one of those!
I know you really don't fancy longs slogs BUT have you considered Bruges to Lausanne or somewhere similar on Lake Geneva? (Chateau D'Ouchy is a nice place to wake up with a view over the lake)
You could spend 2 nights there instead of stops on the way or slowly head towards Chur and Verbier.
Does Laura enjoy mountain passes too or are they more about you enjoying the driving?
If so then maybe you should take the Autoroute to the south on your way down to Roquebrune (take a look at Theoule Sur Mer too) but do the mountains on the way back, there is something so depressing about heading home that is only made worse by doing it on the Autoroute!
Come home by driving to Nice, turn left and head for Briancon via col de bonette then Vars, either stop at the spooky medieval fort town or Briancon where there is a cheap hotel Auberge de la paix and a great restaurant Le Gavroche.
Day after you can either do the reverse of what I suggested (Galibier) or you can head north out of Briancon towards Oulx in Italy and head back down the Maurienne valley to Albertville, them head over Megeve or the Col De Petite St Bernard and either stay in Courmayeur or through the tunnel in Chamonix (Hotel Faucigny or Hotel Grande Alpes and eat in La Calleche (I think it's called) spend the day bumming around and take the cable car to the top of Mont Blanc if you've never done it before!
Hope that helps!
ALFA SPYDER?? :-) I've only driven a later one with the painted bumpers, EVERYTHING is strange, gearshift, driving position, the sensation that the body needs tp be screwed to something more solid, BUT nothing else looks like an Alfa Spyder does it!!
You and I have owned quite a few of the same cars, have you looked at Fiat 124s? I nearly bought one of those!
Edited by don logan on Saturday 18th May 10:42
don logan said:
Hi!
I know you really don't fancy longs slogs BUT have you considered Bruges to Lausanne or somewhere similar on Lake Geneva? (Chateau D'Ouchy is a nice place to wake up with a view over the lake)
You could spend 2 nights there instead of stops on the way or slowly head towards Chur and Verbier.
again i'm totally open to suggestions, i guess after spending the night on the ferry a long slog isn't out of the questionI know you really don't fancy longs slogs BUT have you considered Bruges to Lausanne or somewhere similar on Lake Geneva? (Chateau D'Ouchy is a nice place to wake up with a view over the lake)
You could spend 2 nights there instead of stops on the way or slowly head towards Chur and Verbier.
don logan said:
Does Laura enjoy mountain passes too or are they more about you enjoying the driving?
If so then maybe you should take the Autoroute to the south on your way down to Roquebrune (take a look at Theoule Sur Mer too) but do the mountains on the way back, there is something so depressing about heading home that is only made worse by doing it on the Autoroute!
Come home by driving to Nice, turn left and head for Briancon via col de bonette then Vars, either stop at the spooky medieval fort town or Briancon where there is a cheap hotel Auberge de la paix and a great restaurant Le Gavroche.
Day after you can either do the reverse of what I suggested (Galibier) or you can head north out of Briancon towards Oulx in Italy and head back down the Maurienne valley to Albertville, them head over Megeve or the Col De Petite St Bernard and either stay in Courmayeur or through the tunnel in Chamonix (Hotel Faucigny or Hotel Grande Alpes and eat in La Calleche (I think it's called) spend the day bumming around and take the cable car to the top of Mont Blanc if you've never done it before!
Hope that helps!
big help thanks! yeah laura doesn't mind sitting in the passenger seat as long as i don't go too mad-she has been known to throw up after a lap or two of the nurburgring!If so then maybe you should take the Autoroute to the south on your way down to Roquebrune (take a look at Theoule Sur Mer too) but do the mountains on the way back, there is something so depressing about heading home that is only made worse by doing it on the Autoroute!
Come home by driving to Nice, turn left and head for Briancon via col de bonette then Vars, either stop at the spooky medieval fort town or Briancon where there is a cheap hotel Auberge de la paix and a great restaurant Le Gavroche.
Day after you can either do the reverse of what I suggested (Galibier) or you can head north out of Briancon towards Oulx in Italy and head back down the Maurienne valley to Albertville, them head over Megeve or the Col De Petite St Bernard and either stay in Courmayeur or through the tunnel in Chamonix (Hotel Faucigny or Hotel Grande Alpes and eat in La Calleche (I think it's called) spend the day bumming around and take the cable car to the top of Mont Blanc if you've never done it before!
Hope that helps!
obviously i want to enjoy the driving & laura will be fine with that as long as we pack a nice picnic hamper to stop & enjoy the views but we both don't want to spend the bulk of the time in the car.
don logan said:
ALFA SPYDER?? :-) I've only driven a later one with the painted bumpers, EVERYTHING is strange, gearshift, driving position, the sensation that the body needs tp be screwed to something more solid, BUT nothing else looks like an Alfa Spyder does it!!
You and I have owned quite a few of the same cars, have you looked at Fiat 124s? I nearly bought one of those!the S4 spiders strike the right balance between great looks, reliability & reluctance to rust into oblivion! with the way that classic cars have bubbled in price they're still actually not that bad money either. i'd love a boat tail but can't justify the price increase on an S4.
i fear the 124 & it's contempories would not be the best way to start married life-stuck on the side of a mountain with steam coming from the bonnet & smoke from the brakes!
but yes, i won't be using it for track days or anything!
Well have a think about Bruges - Lausanne or even Bruges-Chamonix, and with regard to slogs, I know people do find amazing places along the way but I'd rather get the less interesting places over with as quickly as possible so I can spend more time in the really nice places.
Don't know why but I find Calais to Chamonix to be a really easy stretch, easier than some shorter journeys. (Usually 6.5hrs)
Bruges to Chamonix
Chamonix to Chur or straight to Verbier (you can either go north out of Chamonix to Martigny via the Col De Forclaz OR through the Mont Blanc tunnel and turn left over the Grande Bernard where they shot the opening scene to the Italian Job with the Miura UNTIL the tunnel which was actually on the Petite St Bernard which will drop you to Martigny, either are great choices but I guess the Grd Bernard has more of a "story"
Verbier to the coast (have a look at Chateau Eza in Eze) dp your thing in Monaco (check out Coultard's hotel The Columbus)
Come home via Col De Bonette, Briancon, Val D'Isere, Chamonix (go to the top of Mont Blanc)
I NEVER thought you were considering this trip in an Alfa Syder! :-)
I know what you mean about classic car prices because it's REALLY pissing me off!
I want a classic American from 1967-72 and it's all become a bit serious as have lots of other things!
Don't know why but I find Calais to Chamonix to be a really easy stretch, easier than some shorter journeys. (Usually 6.5hrs)
Bruges to Chamonix
Chamonix to Chur or straight to Verbier (you can either go north out of Chamonix to Martigny via the Col De Forclaz OR through the Mont Blanc tunnel and turn left over the Grande Bernard where they shot the opening scene to the Italian Job with the Miura UNTIL the tunnel which was actually on the Petite St Bernard which will drop you to Martigny, either are great choices but I guess the Grd Bernard has more of a "story"
Verbier to the coast (have a look at Chateau Eza in Eze) dp your thing in Monaco (check out Coultard's hotel The Columbus)
Come home via Col De Bonette, Briancon, Val D'Isere, Chamonix (go to the top of Mont Blanc)
I NEVER thought you were considering this trip in an Alfa Syder! :-)
I know what you mean about classic car prices because it's REALLY pissing me off!
I want a classic American from 1967-72 and it's all become a bit serious as have lots of other things!
So you reckon chamonix is a good start to the honeymoon? Apple maps reckon on nearly 9 hours from Brugge though I'm not sure how reliable that app is?
Strasbourg shows as under 6 though so that could be a good start. We'll get off the overnight ferry at around 8am I think so we can blast down to there quite easily, then after two nights there move onto the alps?
Strasbourg shows as under 6 though so that could be a good start. We'll get off the overnight ferry at around 8am I think so we can blast down to there quite easily, then after two nights there move onto the alps?
I think Chamonix is a really good "base" because it's a nice place, it isn't a million miles from Calais, doesn't have a complicated / taxing last leg to finish you off at the end and it's got a great "wake up to the view" factor if it's sunny!
The other thing about it is that despite being Alpine it is also a proper town where people actually live all year.
Calais to Chamonix is a comfortable 7hrs with Reims being 2hrs from Calais and my phone just said that Reims is 3hrs from Brugges making it 8hrs without stops for anything but petrol!
Do you like wine? (I don't drink so it's wasted on me) but how about stopping in Beaune on your first night? (6hrs) then 3.5hrs to Chamonix!
Please bear in mind that there are a LOT of nasty hotels in Chamonix (either big and soulless or borderline BnB so be sure to check out the 2 I suggested if you want to stay in the centre but don't let that put you off.
Apart from going to the top (ish) of Mont Blanc there is a train to a HUGE glacier (with a huge Breitling clock at the station at the top) there is also a small hotel and restaurant at the glacier.
The other thing about it is that despite being Alpine it is also a proper town where people actually live all year.
Calais to Chamonix is a comfortable 7hrs with Reims being 2hrs from Calais and my phone just said that Reims is 3hrs from Brugges making it 8hrs without stops for anything but petrol!
Do you like wine? (I don't drink so it's wasted on me) but how about stopping in Beaune on your first night? (6hrs) then 3.5hrs to Chamonix!
Please bear in mind that there are a LOT of nasty hotels in Chamonix (either big and soulless or borderline BnB so be sure to check out the 2 I suggested if you want to stay in the centre but don't let that put you off.
Apart from going to the top (ish) of Mont Blanc there is a train to a HUGE glacier (with a huge Breitling clock at the station at the top) there is also a small hotel and restaurant at the glacier.
Edited by don logan on Saturday 18th May 21:52
Right I think I'm going for a slight change armed with the above recommendations;
Tuesday 6th of August
Get off ferry & drive from zebrugge to Strasbourg
Circa 6 hrs route not planned as yet..
Stay in Strasbourg
Wednesday 7th of August
Stay in Strasbourg
Thursday 8th of August
Friday 9th of August
Saturday 10th of August
Sunday 11th of August
Arrive in verbier 4pm
So Thursday through to Sunday we can spend exploring the alps, doing a few passes etc & generally staying at some smaller b&b's.
Then we'll live in the lap of luxury in verbier for 3 nights before heading to the coast & doing the Côte d'Azur thing.
If we can sort out some good routes for the alpine bits first & then we'll organise the next part after, sound good?
Tuesday 6th of August
Get off ferry & drive from zebrugge to Strasbourg
Circa 6 hrs route not planned as yet..
Stay in Strasbourg
Wednesday 7th of August
Stay in Strasbourg
Thursday 8th of August
Friday 9th of August
Saturday 10th of August
Sunday 11th of August
Arrive in verbier 4pm
So Thursday through to Sunday we can spend exploring the alps, doing a few passes etc & generally staying at some smaller b&b's.
Then we'll live in the lap of luxury in verbier for 3 nights before heading to the coast & doing the Côte d'Azur thing.
If we can sort out some good routes for the alpine bits first & then we'll organise the next part after, sound good?
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