Honda Torneo Euro R
Discussion
Howdy chaps.
Some of you might have seen my JCW before
Over 3 years, it was a great car. I turned it from a bone stock car into a 266hp fire breathing (literally!) monster, but there was an issue....ever since the engine blew up a year or so back, I never trusted it. Add that to the constant issues, impracticality, terrible running costs etc, i was keen to let it go.
I also own this Accord Type R
After a full underbody restoration and with only 70k miles, I couldn't bring myself to drive it in the winter. So, what does a fella do? Swap the Mini for this of course!
For those unaware, this is basically a JDM Honda Accord, nearly identical to my Type R above. However, the Euro R was to be developed as more of a long distance cruiser. As a result, it's a good 200kg or so heavier than the Type R, but this results in nice things like electric windows and mirrors, climate control, soundproofing, air con etc etc. The only thing I dislike about this car is the electric steering compared to the Type Rs fantastic hydraulic steering.
I'll be sure to update this thread often! Plans are already in motion
Some of you might have seen my JCW before
Over 3 years, it was a great car. I turned it from a bone stock car into a 266hp fire breathing (literally!) monster, but there was an issue....ever since the engine blew up a year or so back, I never trusted it. Add that to the constant issues, impracticality, terrible running costs etc, i was keen to let it go.
I also own this Accord Type R
After a full underbody restoration and with only 70k miles, I couldn't bring myself to drive it in the winter. So, what does a fella do? Swap the Mini for this of course!
For those unaware, this is basically a JDM Honda Accord, nearly identical to my Type R above. However, the Euro R was to be developed as more of a long distance cruiser. As a result, it's a good 200kg or so heavier than the Type R, but this results in nice things like electric windows and mirrors, climate control, soundproofing, air con etc etc. The only thing I dislike about this car is the electric steering compared to the Type Rs fantastic hydraulic steering.
I'll be sure to update this thread often! Plans are already in motion
Any scope for retrofitting hydraulic PAS with parts from the Honda back catalogue?
When I engine swapped my car (engine ~10 years newer than the car), the donor vehicle had electric steering however I was able to delete A/C in order to fit the original belt-drive hydraulic PAS pump from the old engine and I'm so glad I did!
Obviously I don't suggest you delete A/C on yours, so if there is no easy way to get a belt drive pump I know some of the diesel Fiestas plus a few Vauxhalls and Peugeots have electric pumps on a traditional hydraulic PAS system.
When I engine swapped my car (engine ~10 years newer than the car), the donor vehicle had electric steering however I was able to delete A/C in order to fit the original belt-drive hydraulic PAS pump from the old engine and I'm so glad I did!
Obviously I don't suggest you delete A/C on yours, so if there is no easy way to get a belt drive pump I know some of the diesel Fiestas plus a few Vauxhalls and Peugeots have electric pumps on a traditional hydraulic PAS system.
lb3nson said:
I’ve always liked these, but the electric PAS puts me off. My ATR and DC2 felt fantastic, the EP3 I had before those felt awful with the electric PAS.
Do you notice much of a difference?
The CL1 does have a nice weight to it when in "+" mode, but it's more of a constant weight throughout the whole steering range rather than being more progressive and communicative like in the Type R. Don't get me wrong, the CL1 is still a fantastic drive and the chassis is very capable, the car refuses to understeer and actually has quite a lively back end. But, you can certainly feel that the Euro R is more of a cruiser compared to the Type R.Do you notice much of a difference?
Don't let it out you off too much though. It's definitely much better than the EP3s terrible steering
The Rotrex Kid said:
Funny ain’t it, I’ve never really understood the disdain for the EP3 steering, of course I didn’t have a standard setup for very long so maybe I just didn’t get a feel for it but it’s perfectly fine by me!
Suppose it comes down to what you're used to mate. I had an EP3 for a while and couldn't get on with it, where as the missus loved it! Then when I drove a mates EP3 which had a converted DC5 system put into it (hydraulic), the difference was night and day!!An update for you all 
So before purchasing the car, the previous owner told me he has tried lots of things to cure a hesitation issue the car had before VTEC. When I test drove it, I then realized that it is also a bit sluggish before VTEC and then takes off like a scalded cat once it reaches 5000rpm. So I concluded that it was either going to be timing or fuelling related, and knowing these cars like I do, I'm confident I'll get to the bottom of it.
During the 4 and a half hour drive home, the car was faultless. However, when we were about 5 miles from home, the hesitation or stutter got so bad that the car would simply not pull up any hills or anything of the sort. Out of frustration, I dropped it down a couple of gears and beat the proverbial out of the car to get it home....and alas, the issue was cured? Upon speaking to the previous owner, he stated he did change the fuel pump but instead of going for an OEM replacement which flows around 190lp/h, he fitted a rather monstrous AEM fuel pump which flows nearly 400lp/h!! This would explain why the car started stuttering badly after a long haul. My theory is that because the standard ECU is not smart enough to ask for specific duty cycles percentages and instead demands different voltages from the pump at different RPMs/engine loads, 7 volts from an OEM pump would flow say 90ish lp/h where as 7 volts from this monster AEM pump would flow about double that! So in my mind, I reckon that under normal driving, the car is dumping fuel and therefore foulling the plugs. That would explain why the car drove fine until we were nearly home, and then drove fine again after I had given it a good italian tune up!
With this in mind, I had a plan of action which consisted of:
1. EGR clean
2. Check engine timing
3. Check valve clearances
4. Replace fuel pump and pressure regulator
So I've started with the EGR clean. First I whipped off the EGR plate which runs across the top of the manifold, and was greeted with this.
Yep, silicone sealant all over the place. Absolutely not needed on these cars. Then I removed the EGR.
A very blocked EGR, with blocked manifold ports, a hand made blanking plate and you guessed it, silicone sealant everywhere....I wasn't thrilled. Seeing people do "bodges" like this annoys me, as not only does it make the car worse but there's simply no way it would ever work, especially when these ECUs are locked and thus you cannot remove the EGR from the cars computer anyway, so it's pointless! Regardless, an hour was spent after I decided to remove the intake manifold altogether, clean everything thoroughly and reassemble. Luckily I have a few spare EGRs here from Accords I have broke for spares. With it all back together and a "new" EGR, the car is running much better. The stutter is still there, but not anywhere near as bad as it was. Overall I'm happy with it, and I'm sure the car is too now that it has a better idea of what's going on with the EGR! Once I find time, I'll the move onto engine timing, clearances etc.
Now for the cars first mods! You'll see in the first post that the car came with a pair of EK9 Type R seats, called the Recaros SR3s. They are a fantastic looking seat, however I had a couple of issues....Number one being my fat arse doesn't particularly fit in these seats anymore, and number two being they needed a bit of work. They were actually surprisingly rip free, but did need a bit of a clean and one of the bolsters had been filled with expanding foam So not willing to do the work, I advertised the seats and promptly sold them on to a young guy wanting them more than life itself! Then for the same amount of money, I contacted a friend who had a pair of red and black speedlines recaros from an EP3 premier edition, and slapped them in, leaving this!
They are properly mint, with the only issue being a small cigarette burn here which the missus has said she can easily repair.
These are commonly called a fatboy recaros, and I agree with that statement they aren't quite as bolstered as the SR3s the car came with, but still do a fantastic job holding you in the corners and yet are super comfortable. Funnily enough, these are the exact same seat as the Mitsubishi Evo 6, as well as what the Torneo and my Accord Type R originally come with. The only difference is the colours and the fact that the Accord Type Rs have a squishy rubber ball on the driver's seat that forces air into the bolsters for more support.
Next on the list, was the steering wheel. These Momo wheels are lovely to hold and the same as what was offered in some Ferraris of the same era! But, my Torneos original one was peeling. So out it came, and in went a spare recently refurbished wheel and gearstick gaitor that I had in stock.
And that's us up to date! I've done a few miles in the car since but nothing significant. I'm currently making space to strip the car down and tackle this stuttering issue.
Thanks for reading!
So before purchasing the car, the previous owner told me he has tried lots of things to cure a hesitation issue the car had before VTEC. When I test drove it, I then realized that it is also a bit sluggish before VTEC and then takes off like a scalded cat once it reaches 5000rpm. So I concluded that it was either going to be timing or fuelling related, and knowing these cars like I do, I'm confident I'll get to the bottom of it.
During the 4 and a half hour drive home, the car was faultless. However, when we were about 5 miles from home, the hesitation or stutter got so bad that the car would simply not pull up any hills or anything of the sort. Out of frustration, I dropped it down a couple of gears and beat the proverbial out of the car to get it home....and alas, the issue was cured? Upon speaking to the previous owner, he stated he did change the fuel pump but instead of going for an OEM replacement which flows around 190lp/h, he fitted a rather monstrous AEM fuel pump which flows nearly 400lp/h!! This would explain why the car started stuttering badly after a long haul. My theory is that because the standard ECU is not smart enough to ask for specific duty cycles percentages and instead demands different voltages from the pump at different RPMs/engine loads, 7 volts from an OEM pump would flow say 90ish lp/h where as 7 volts from this monster AEM pump would flow about double that! So in my mind, I reckon that under normal driving, the car is dumping fuel and therefore foulling the plugs. That would explain why the car drove fine until we were nearly home, and then drove fine again after I had given it a good italian tune up!
With this in mind, I had a plan of action which consisted of:
1. EGR clean
2. Check engine timing
3. Check valve clearances
4. Replace fuel pump and pressure regulator
So I've started with the EGR clean. First I whipped off the EGR plate which runs across the top of the manifold, and was greeted with this.
Yep, silicone sealant all over the place. Absolutely not needed on these cars. Then I removed the EGR.
A very blocked EGR, with blocked manifold ports, a hand made blanking plate and you guessed it, silicone sealant everywhere....I wasn't thrilled. Seeing people do "bodges" like this annoys me, as not only does it make the car worse but there's simply no way it would ever work, especially when these ECUs are locked and thus you cannot remove the EGR from the cars computer anyway, so it's pointless! Regardless, an hour was spent after I decided to remove the intake manifold altogether, clean everything thoroughly and reassemble. Luckily I have a few spare EGRs here from Accords I have broke for spares. With it all back together and a "new" EGR, the car is running much better. The stutter is still there, but not anywhere near as bad as it was. Overall I'm happy with it, and I'm sure the car is too now that it has a better idea of what's going on with the EGR! Once I find time, I'll the move onto engine timing, clearances etc.
Now for the cars first mods! You'll see in the first post that the car came with a pair of EK9 Type R seats, called the Recaros SR3s. They are a fantastic looking seat, however I had a couple of issues....Number one being my fat arse doesn't particularly fit in these seats anymore, and number two being they needed a bit of work. They were actually surprisingly rip free, but did need a bit of a clean and one of the bolsters had been filled with expanding foam
So not willing to do the work, I advertised the seats and promptly sold them on to a young guy wanting them more than life itself! Then for the same amount of money, I contacted a friend who had a pair of red and black speedlines recaros from an EP3 premier edition, and slapped them in, leaving this!They are properly mint, with the only issue being a small cigarette burn here which the missus has said she can easily repair.
These are commonly called a fatboy recaros, and I agree with that statement
they aren't quite as bolstered as the SR3s the car came with, but still do a fantastic job holding you in the corners and yet are super comfortable. Funnily enough, these are the exact same seat as the Mitsubishi Evo 6, as well as what the Torneo and my Accord Type R originally come with. The only difference is the colours and the fact that the Accord Type Rs have a squishy rubber ball on the driver's seat that forces air into the bolsters for more support.Next on the list, was the steering wheel. These Momo wheels are lovely to hold and the same as what was offered in some Ferraris of the same era! But, my Torneos original one was peeling. So out it came, and in went a spare recently refurbished wheel and gearstick gaitor that I had in stock.
And that's us up to date! I've done a few miles in the car since but nothing significant. I'm currently making space to strip the car down and tackle this stuttering issue.
Thanks for reading!
Thanks for the info ref the electric steering, i'm glad somebody else felt the EP3 steering was as bad as I thought!
The seats look great. My ATR had the rare leather option which looked much better than the odd green colour the normal seats are but didn't actually hold in that well. These look like the best of both worlds!
The seats look great. My ATR had the rare leather option which looked much better than the odd green colour the normal seats are but didn't actually hold in that well. These look like the best of both worlds!
NateWM said:
During the 4 and a half hour drive home, the car was faultless. However, when we were about 5 miles from home, the hesitation or stutter got so bad that the car would simply not pull up any hills or anything of the sort. Out of frustration, I dropped it down a couple of gears and beat the proverbial out of the car to get it home....and alas, the issue was cured? Upon speaking to the previous owner, he stated he did change the fuel pump but instead of going for an OEM replacement which flows around 190lp/h, he fitted a rather monstrous AEM fuel pump which flows nearly 400lp/h!! This would explain why the car started stuttering badly after a long haul. My theory is that because the standard ECU is not smart enough to ask for specific duty cycles percentages and instead demands different voltages from the pump at different RPMs/engine loads, 7 volts from an OEM pump would flow say 90ish lp/h where as 7 volts from this monster AEM pump would flow about double that! So in my mind, I reckon that under normal driving, the car is dumping fuel and therefore foulling the plugs. That would explain why the car drove fine until we were nearly home, and then drove fine again after I had given it a good italian tune up!
I know nothing of Honda's but i'm not sure on this diagnosis. Won't the ecu just control a relay for the fuel pump like most cars of this age, it's either on or off and there will be a fuel pressure regulator to control the pressure in the fuel rail. lb3nson said:
Thanks for the info ref the electric steering, i'm glad somebody else felt the EP3 steering was as bad as I thought!
The seats look great. My ATR had the rare leather option which looked much better than the odd green colour the normal seats are but didn't actually hold in that well. These look like the best of both worlds!
Yeah the leather is incredibly rare! They actually done a red and black cloth option for the ATR which my one currently has. As you can see in the pic (it's not my car in the pic), it's similar to what I have in my Torneo except the red is more muted. I'm hoping to find the doorcards and rear seat to go in my Torneo, as it currently has the strange green colour you described above.The seats look great. My ATR had the rare leather option which looked much better than the odd green colour the normal seats are but didn't actually hold in that well. These look like the best of both worlds!
Escy said:
I know nothing of Honda's but i'm not sure on this diagnosis. Won't the ecu just control a relay for the fuel pump like most cars of this age, it's either on or off and there will be a fuel pressure regulator to control the pressure in the fuel rail.
I could be wrong, I'm just going off previous experience and the knowledge of a well known Honda tuner I've spoken to. You are indeed correct that the fuel pressure regulator should modulate the fuel flow, but the theory is that as this runs off a combined signal between actual pressure detected in the rail and a demand signal from the ECU, the actual flow that is then given to the rail is possibly too much as the AEM pump currently in the car is an absolute monster compared to the OEM pump. Couple this with the fact that the FPR in these cars is a very brittle item with a tiny plastic diaphragm, I'd have no doubt that chances are the damage is already done and the excessive pressure from the upgraded fuel pump could have potentially ruined the FPR. The plan is to do the engine timing/valve clearances etc next, then move onto the fuel system which will start with an OEM pump and replacement FPR, then possibly injectors.Howdy folks! A small update.
The hesitation issue was resolved, found to be a faulty fuel pressure regulator caused from the absolute monster of a fuel pump. Replaced the pump and regulator with good second hand spares I already had, and sold the AEM pump for 265 quid. Win!
In other news, I have tackled one cosmetic issue that was really bugging me.
You might not be able to make it out here, but one of the headlights was completely soaked inside from the car having a missing arch liner on that side (since replaced) and as well as that, it was actually the incorrect headlight. A beardy fact for you....All Torneos with the exception of the base models run HID headlights. However, the Euro R has bronze internals to signify it's "sportiness" whilst the lesser models have chrome. One of my headlights was replaced at some point and as a result I had one chrome and one dark bronze headlight. This irked me, so I set about resolving it.
With its face off, first thing I done was check for rust. Thankfully there's very little, with just surface in places. I am however planning to have the front end fully stripped after summer to give it a full undercoat/respray etc. Also, I suspected whether the car had a minor bump hence the odd headlight but thankfully it's all straight. I imagine one of the headlights HID ballasts failed.
I wish I got more pictures, but the headlights were both split open and the internal garnish painted Matt black, as well as the indicator lense having a subtle tint film applied. On top of that, I also fully refurbished the foglights and applied the JDM correct yellow bulbs and chameleon film.
After all of this and the car being put back together, I then gave the car a full detail! The paintwork was in quite terrible condition, with metal swarf and tar all over the place. I strongly suspect the car has lived it's duration in Ireland receiving nothing but gritty bucket washes and the occasional flick of turtle wax with an old rag
Alas, I am here to save the old girl and after a good going over, I was left with this!
And a bit of beading filth for you perverts!
I have been detailing cars for years, but even I was surprised how well it came up! There's not a swirl in sight and the paint has went from feeling like a pebbledashed house to like running your hand down a polished marble counter top. Very happy!
Now, onto the not so good news I bought the car with only a months NCT remaining. For those of you unaware, the NCT is the Irish MOT. However, it is government ran from the same German company that run TüV. As a result, NCTs can only be done at certified centers and can be notorious for failing cars on the most stupid things. Now my Torneo was actually only tested about 2 weeks and 1000km before me purchasing it, but it was "backdated" as the car was stood for a while. After I purchased the car, I had checked it over on a ramp and could not find any issues and with it only being tested 1000km or so ago, it couldn't be that bad right?......right??
Wrong After a gruelling hour of waiting, out comes the tester who hands me a sheet (whilst grinning, I kid you not!) and says "Unlucky lad, she's failed!". In disbelief, I ask on what.
1. Headlight aim (seemed fine to me but ok...)
2. Foglight switch bulb not working (cue eye roll)
3. Front passenger seat belt slightly slow to retract (cue even heavier eye roll)
4. 1 out of 6 windscreen washer nozzles not working (is this a joke?)
5. Rust in boot floor (wait....what?)
The other issues were fairly laughable, but rust? This was a surprise to me. I have owned many of these cars and I know where they rust, and after taking all the body kit off and fully inspecting the car I found none....But I never thought of stripping the boot carpets out fully as I've never seen one rust there. Well Mr.NCT man did, and after he ripped out my carpets and broke the clips that hold them in place, I was left with this.
Nice
I panicked when I saw this, especially when it's on top of the chassis leg. After a few phone calls, I was put onto a lovely old bloke called Stanton. He arrived in a beautiful old LandCruiser and after looking at the rust, let out a little giggle and says "Pah! That's nothing boy, give me a few days and I'll have her sorted in a day". To say I let out a sigh of relief is an understatement! We then spent the next hour poking and prodding, and thankfully the rot is quite contained and hasn't spread to the inner arch or into the chassis leg itself. We found the rear windscreen sealant has failed and suspect this to be the cause of rust due to water ingress. She's now booked in to get welded up over the next few days, and I'm confident she's in good hands as he's ran me through the whole process of prepping/rust killing etc, to completely stop the rust in its tracks instead of just welding over it.
And that my friends brings us up to speed. It's been an enjoyable few weeks with the exception of the rust discovery, and the car has really made an impression. The missus has really fallen in love with the car, and being a welsh bird she has chosen to name it "Tanwyn" meaning "white fire". I like it
The hesitation issue was resolved, found to be a faulty fuel pressure regulator caused from the absolute monster of a fuel pump. Replaced the pump and regulator with good second hand spares I already had, and sold the AEM pump for 265 quid. Win!
In other news, I have tackled one cosmetic issue that was really bugging me.
You might not be able to make it out here, but one of the headlights was completely soaked inside from the car having a missing arch liner on that side (since replaced) and as well as that, it was actually the incorrect headlight. A beardy fact for you....All Torneos with the exception of the base models run HID headlights. However, the Euro R has bronze internals to signify it's "sportiness" whilst the lesser models have chrome. One of my headlights was replaced at some point and as a result I had one chrome and one dark bronze headlight. This irked me, so I set about resolving it.
With its face off, first thing I done was check for rust. Thankfully there's very little, with just surface in places. I am however planning to have the front end fully stripped after summer to give it a full undercoat/respray etc. Also, I suspected whether the car had a minor bump hence the odd headlight but thankfully it's all straight. I imagine one of the headlights HID ballasts failed.
I wish I got more pictures, but the headlights were both split open and the internal garnish painted Matt black, as well as the indicator lense having a subtle tint film applied. On top of that, I also fully refurbished the foglights and applied the JDM correct yellow bulbs and chameleon film.
After all of this and the car being put back together, I then gave the car a full detail! The paintwork was in quite terrible condition, with metal swarf and tar all over the place. I strongly suspect the car has lived it's duration in Ireland receiving nothing but gritty bucket washes and the occasional flick of turtle wax with an old rag
Alas, I am here to save the old girl and after a good going over, I was left with this!And a bit of beading filth for you perverts!
I have been detailing cars for years, but even I was surprised how well it came up! There's not a swirl in sight and the paint has went from feeling like a pebbledashed house to like running your hand down a polished marble counter top. Very happy!
Now, onto the not so good news
I bought the car with only a months NCT remaining. For those of you unaware, the NCT is the Irish MOT. However, it is government ran from the same German company that run TüV. As a result, NCTs can only be done at certified centers and can be notorious for failing cars on the most stupid things. Now my Torneo was actually only tested about 2 weeks and 1000km before me purchasing it, but it was "backdated" as the car was stood for a while. After I purchased the car, I had checked it over on a ramp and could not find any issues and with it only being tested 1000km or so ago, it couldn't be that bad right?......right??Wrong
After a gruelling hour of waiting, out comes the tester who hands me a sheet (whilst grinning, I kid you not!) and says "Unlucky lad, she's failed!". In disbelief, I ask on what.1. Headlight aim (seemed fine to me but ok...)
2. Foglight switch bulb not working (cue eye roll)
3. Front passenger seat belt slightly slow to retract (cue even heavier eye roll)
4. 1 out of 6 windscreen washer nozzles not working (is this a joke?)
5. Rust in boot floor (wait....what?)
The other issues were fairly laughable, but rust? This was a surprise to me. I have owned many of these cars and I know where they rust, and after taking all the body kit off and fully inspecting the car I found none....But I never thought of stripping the boot carpets out fully as I've never seen one rust there. Well Mr.NCT man did, and after he ripped out my carpets and broke the clips that hold them in place, I was left with this.
Nice
I panicked when I saw this, especially when it's on top of the chassis leg. After a few phone calls, I was put onto a lovely old bloke called Stanton. He arrived in a beautiful old LandCruiser and after looking at the rust, let out a little giggle and says "Pah! That's nothing boy, give me a few days and I'll have her sorted in a day". To say I let out a sigh of relief is an understatement! We then spent the next hour poking and prodding, and thankfully the rot is quite contained and hasn't spread to the inner arch or into the chassis leg itself. We found the rear windscreen sealant has failed and suspect this to be the cause of rust due to water ingress. She's now booked in to get welded up over the next few days, and I'm confident she's in good hands as he's ran me through the whole process of prepping/rust killing etc, to completely stop the rust in its tracks instead of just welding over it.And that my friends brings us up to speed. It's been an enjoyable few weeks with the exception of the rust discovery, and the car has really made an impression. The missus has really fallen in love with the car, and being a welsh bird she has chosen to name it "Tanwyn" meaning "white fire". I like it
The Rotrex Kid said:
Great work on the headlights, shame about the rust! Hopefully it gets sorted ASAP.
Thank you! Yeah it was a bit of a downer when I spotted it, and I was kicking myself for not checking before doing the deal. Thing is, I soon calmed down and remembered the fact that it's still a 20 year old car, and a Japanese one at that, so rust will always show it's ugly face sooner or later. I'm dropping her off Wednesday to be done, and I'll try and grab some pictures along the way. Colonel D said:
That looks great
Thanks! I was very pleased with how it came up Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff