1971 Triumph Toledo Road/Rally
Discussion
Hello All,
My first cars were Triumphs and I'd always kind of hankered for a two door Toledo, they had the Michelotti looks of the four door but with the more sporting lines and lighter weight.
I moved to Finland 6 years ago, and was on the lookout for a Lancia Fulvia coupe as my next project, but then Covid happened and I couldn't get down to Italy to pick one up, not to mention the prices had rocketed in the time it took me to save some cash.
Then on a marketplace website I saw a Valencia blue Toledo with the 1500 engine for sale in Finland. A quick google showed that this is the ONLY Toledo on the road in Finland, so I pulled the trigger, borrowed a trailer and went and bought it.
The car has been rebuilt over a period of three years by a very nice old boy, Mechanically it seems well done, and he has carefully repaired any rust that may have been in the car, but the bodywork looks a bit home made at close quarters. I had planned on bare metalling it, seeing what was under everything, but truth be told, as time has progressed ( I bought it last April) I'm not sure its bad enough to warrant that extent of investment, I can live with it for now.
I used it sparingly over last summer, a few road trips here and there and wedding duties for our good friends.
There is some rear axle/wheel bearing noise to sort for this season, and the clutch to swap out. Which brings me to the big problem. Brexit has now made it a very expensive and slow game to buy all your parts from the UK. So everything needs to be carefully thought out. I ordered the wrong clutch initially, and by the time I'd returned it and ordered the right one, that £80 clutch ended costing me over £300.
The intention is to get it running nice with a few additions in a road rally style this winter, and then investigate what the regulations in Finland will allow me to do as far as changing the drivetrain goes. There's a TR7 2.0 available but that will have to wait a while.
Swapped out the rear wheel bearings. The hubs were on so tight it took 15 tons in the press to break them free. Scared the bejeesus outta me.
The gearbox on these doesn't come out the bottom, you need to take the trans tunnel off inside the car and bring the gearbox out through the interior. So step one of changing the clutch is to remove the steering wheel and seats, a bit odd.
Then after a little drift around the factory in the snow to make sure everything was working, I starting on getting it looking the part.
I fitted some bonnet pins and located the external battery kill switch in the bonnet grill attached to the steering column mount in the bulkhead.
Then I fabbed up some spotlight mounts from the bumper mounting position for the 9" Cibies and wired them in. Mat blacked the wing tops and the bonnet. I did try some A la Lancia "Triumph-Finland" lettering across the front but took it off again, didn't look right. Tow straps also fitted.
At the rear I fitted boot spring catches and a tow strap from the rear bumper mounts, and made some little cover panels and spacers to keep the springs the right distance from the body.
Started applying a few choice decals including the in period logo of our family business here in Finland. We will occasionally use the car for advertising.
Inside the car I started to fab up an auxiliary panel to house the internal kill switch and extra switches. It sits between the parcel shelf and the dash.
Just Yesterday I got here back from powder coating so fitted it up and wired in all the switches and labelled the front using a period ribbon label printer. I'm pleased with it, it looks rather smart.
Now a few shots from outside, looking almost finished.
This winter I will still fit the twin SU carbs once I order the rebuild kit, and I will buy a Moto Lita wheel, (I already have the hub), some nice mud flaps, and possibly I would like to switch to the twin headlamp Dolomite front end if funds allow. I also bought some Lotus Europa wheels which have a similar look to the Italian "Cromadora" style i like so much which i need to refurb. The problem is, I have rather fallen in love with the steelies.
That brings us bang up to date on the Toledo build, I hope you enjoy taking a look.
My first cars were Triumphs and I'd always kind of hankered for a two door Toledo, they had the Michelotti looks of the four door but with the more sporting lines and lighter weight.
I moved to Finland 6 years ago, and was on the lookout for a Lancia Fulvia coupe as my next project, but then Covid happened and I couldn't get down to Italy to pick one up, not to mention the prices had rocketed in the time it took me to save some cash.
Then on a marketplace website I saw a Valencia blue Toledo with the 1500 engine for sale in Finland. A quick google showed that this is the ONLY Toledo on the road in Finland, so I pulled the trigger, borrowed a trailer and went and bought it.
The car has been rebuilt over a period of three years by a very nice old boy, Mechanically it seems well done, and he has carefully repaired any rust that may have been in the car, but the bodywork looks a bit home made at close quarters. I had planned on bare metalling it, seeing what was under everything, but truth be told, as time has progressed ( I bought it last April) I'm not sure its bad enough to warrant that extent of investment, I can live with it for now.
I used it sparingly over last summer, a few road trips here and there and wedding duties for our good friends.
There is some rear axle/wheel bearing noise to sort for this season, and the clutch to swap out. Which brings me to the big problem. Brexit has now made it a very expensive and slow game to buy all your parts from the UK. So everything needs to be carefully thought out. I ordered the wrong clutch initially, and by the time I'd returned it and ordered the right one, that £80 clutch ended costing me over £300.
The intention is to get it running nice with a few additions in a road rally style this winter, and then investigate what the regulations in Finland will allow me to do as far as changing the drivetrain goes. There's a TR7 2.0 available but that will have to wait a while.
Swapped out the rear wheel bearings. The hubs were on so tight it took 15 tons in the press to break them free. Scared the bejeesus outta me.
The gearbox on these doesn't come out the bottom, you need to take the trans tunnel off inside the car and bring the gearbox out through the interior. So step one of changing the clutch is to remove the steering wheel and seats, a bit odd.
Then after a little drift around the factory in the snow to make sure everything was working, I starting on getting it looking the part.
I fitted some bonnet pins and located the external battery kill switch in the bonnet grill attached to the steering column mount in the bulkhead.
Then I fabbed up some spotlight mounts from the bumper mounting position for the 9" Cibies and wired them in. Mat blacked the wing tops and the bonnet. I did try some A la Lancia "Triumph-Finland" lettering across the front but took it off again, didn't look right. Tow straps also fitted.
At the rear I fitted boot spring catches and a tow strap from the rear bumper mounts, and made some little cover panels and spacers to keep the springs the right distance from the body.
Started applying a few choice decals including the in period logo of our family business here in Finland. We will occasionally use the car for advertising.
Inside the car I started to fab up an auxiliary panel to house the internal kill switch and extra switches. It sits between the parcel shelf and the dash.
Just Yesterday I got here back from powder coating so fitted it up and wired in all the switches and labelled the front using a period ribbon label printer. I'm pleased with it, it looks rather smart.
Now a few shots from outside, looking almost finished.
This winter I will still fit the twin SU carbs once I order the rebuild kit, and I will buy a Moto Lita wheel, (I already have the hub), some nice mud flaps, and possibly I would like to switch to the twin headlamp Dolomite front end if funds allow. I also bought some Lotus Europa wheels which have a similar look to the Italian "Cromadora" style i like so much which i need to refurb. The problem is, I have rather fallen in love with the steelies.
That brings us bang up to date on the Toledo build, I hope you enjoy taking a look.
Edited by Jake899 on Tuesday 25th January 11:48
Polly Grigora said:
Ok then, asked because I'd never seen it done before
As you comment, same thing
I thought long and hard at the start of this project if I wanted to go full FIA on this build, and I decided against it, mostly because I want to keep the car usable with four people in it for road trips etc. So it's really more of a homage to a full rally car, although if some small road rallies or hill climb type of things get organized, I'd like to compete just for the experience.As you comment, same thing
This is ace. My first car was a 1975 Triumph Toledo in 1987. Mine was French blue with a black vinyl roof and was purchased for £250.
Unfortunately , it suffered low oil pressure and big end bearing failure after about a year of me having it .
The shell was good as it had been Ziebart rustproofed by the original owner so I sold it on to a guy for £85 who was going to put a reconditioned engine in it.
I remember it being as quite a good little car to drive.
Even with 60bhp it was possible to get the tail moving.
Will be following this with interest.
Unfortunately , it suffered low oil pressure and big end bearing failure after about a year of me having it .
The shell was good as it had been Ziebart rustproofed by the original owner so I sold it on to a guy for £85 who was going to put a reconditioned engine in it.
I remember it being as quite a good little car to drive.
Even with 60bhp it was possible to get the tail moving.
Will be following this with interest.
Alfa Pete said:
This is ace. My first car was a 1975 Triumph Toledo in 1987. Mine was French blue with a black vinyl roof and was purchased for £250.
Unfortunately , it suffered low oil pressure and big end bearing failure after about a year of me having it .
The shell was good as it had been Ziebart rustproofed by the original owner so I sold it on to a guy for £85 who was going to put a reconditioned engine in it.
I remember it being as quite a good little car to drive.
Even with 60bhp it was possible to get the tail moving.
Will be following this with interest.
Thanks Pete, yeah they are actually quite fun in a roly-poly wind milling steering wheel kind of way, but not quick by any means, although we are slowly working on that. The prices you mention were about right back in the day, as with all things, the 3k i paid for mine felt like a decent price. However, I don't think they will ever be worth big money, as they are 50 years old now and no one has noticed them yet!Unfortunately , it suffered low oil pressure and big end bearing failure after about a year of me having it .
The shell was good as it had been Ziebart rustproofed by the original owner so I sold it on to a guy for £85 who was going to put a reconditioned engine in it.
I remember it being as quite a good little car to drive.
Even with 60bhp it was possible to get the tail moving.
Will be following this with interest.
Its pay day, finally!
Ordered 15" Moto Lita steering wheel
twin HS4 SU carb rebuild kit
A few fancy looking bits like new BL branded mudguards, etc because why not?
If there's any money left after the daily needs are paid for, then I will spring for front ARB mounts too.
All good, but this month I need to focus on the motorcycle as it is off to the big Nordic show down in Helsinki at the end of March.
Finally some news as the parts I ordered on payday start to filter through the Finnish postal service.
I spent quite a lot on this wheel (including nearly €70 import tax) but I always have the opinion that as the wheel is the main contact point between you and the car, it’s important. Moto-Lita are based at Thruxton which was my local race circuit as a boy, we would go there twice a year to watch the Touring Car races. They are hand made and beautifully done.
Before:
And After:
The cockpit is ready for summer!
Just to show that despite my absence, I haven’t been lazy, I’ve been replacing the vulcanized rubber loom wrap I used when I built the bike with fabric tape, as the rubber just hasn’t lasted. The bike has also had a toothbrush and earbud level clean to get it ready for the national show next month.
I spent quite a lot on this wheel (including nearly €70 import tax) but I always have the opinion that as the wheel is the main contact point between you and the car, it’s important. Moto-Lita are based at Thruxton which was my local race circuit as a boy, we would go there twice a year to watch the Touring Car races. They are hand made and beautifully done.
Before:
And After:
The cockpit is ready for summer!
Just to show that despite my absence, I haven’t been lazy, I’ve been replacing the vulcanized rubber loom wrap I used when I built the bike with fabric tape, as the rubber just hasn’t lasted. The bike has also had a toothbrush and earbud level clean to get it ready for the national show next month.
Cool project! Always liked these since as a teen I saw a pale yellow Toledo for sale, which some absolute nutter had swapped a Honda F20C (S2000 engine) and 6 speed gearbox in to, stuck in my mind ever since as something that must have been great fun!
Look forward to seeing to progress and enjoyment you get from yours
Look forward to seeing to progress and enjoyment you get from yours
Chunkychucky said:
Cool project! Always liked these since as a teen I saw a pale yellow Toledo for sale, which some absolute nutter had swapped a Honda F20C (S2000 engine) and 6 speed gearbox in to, stuck in my mind ever since as something that must have been great fun!
Look forward to seeing to progress and enjoyment you get from yours
Yeah I enjoyed following the Honeysuckle yellow build thread over on RR it was a great project. Here in Finland I am very limited in what I can do to modify the car as it is on the Historic Register. But that's ok as I've just gone down the period modification route. Ideally if I can I will convert the car to Dolomite Sprint spec, 130 horse in this should move 850kg pretty well. It has only 60hp as standard!Look forward to seeing to progress and enjoyment you get from yours
Jake899 said:
Yeah I enjoyed following the Honeysuckle yellow build thread over on RR it was a great project. Here in Finland I am very limited in what I can do to modify the car as it is on the Historic Register. But that's ok as I've just gone down the period modification route. Ideally if I can I will convert the car to Dolomite Sprint spec, 130 horse in this should move 850kg pretty well. It has only 60hp as standard!
Adding the twin SUs should bring that up to >70bhp. 90ish bhp is easy from the Triumph 1.3, and with some serious effort you can get it to around 125, although this spec tends to be a bit too much for the crankshaft (even the earlier 'stronger' crank will snap sooner or later if you go this far). In the 90s I was running a modded Triumph Herald using the 1.3 engine and Dyno'd at 128bhp / 7500rpm. I did get 22,000 miles before the crank snapped in #1 big end!
Magnum 475 said:
Adding the twin SUs should bring that up to >70bhp. 90ish bhp is easy from the Triumph 1.3, and with some serious effort you can get it to around 125, although this spec tends to be a bit too much for the crankshaft (even the earlier 'stronger' crank will snap sooner or later if you go this far).
In the 90s I was running a modded Triumph Herald using the 1.3 engine and Dyno'd at 128bhp / 7500rpm. I did get 22,000 miles before the crank snapped in #1 big end!
The 1300 has a good reputation for being a revvy little unit. The problem is, mine is a 1500... But if I'm not able to retro fit a Sprint engine then there's no choice but to get creative with what I have and rebuild the 1500 with all new internals and see what I can get out of it. To be honest I'd be happy with 100bhp. In the 90s I was running a modded Triumph Herald using the 1.3 engine and Dyno'd at 128bhp / 7500rpm. I did get 22,000 miles before the crank snapped in #1 big end!
Your Herald must have been RAPID and terrifying in the corners with 130 brake, great stuff!
Jake899 said:
Magnum 475 said:
Adding the twin SUs should bring that up to >70bhp. 90ish bhp is easy from the Triumph 1.3, and with some serious effort you can get it to around 125, although this spec tends to be a bit too much for the crankshaft (even the earlier 'stronger' crank will snap sooner or later if you go this far).
In the 90s I was running a modded Triumph Herald using the 1.3 engine and Dyno'd at 128bhp / 7500rpm. I did get 22,000 miles before the crank snapped in #1 big end!
The 1300 has a good reputation for being a revvy little unit. The problem is, mine is a 1500... But if I'm not able to retro fit a Sprint engine then there's no choice but to get creative with what I have and rebuild the 1500 with all new internals and see what I can get out of it. To be honest I'd be happy with 100bhp. In the 90s I was running a modded Triumph Herald using the 1.3 engine and Dyno'd at 128bhp / 7500rpm. I did get 22,000 miles before the crank snapped in #1 big end!
Your Herald must have been RAPID and terrifying in the corners with 130 brake, great stuff!
Obviously, suspension & brakes had been uprated quite a bit compared to the kit that was on the car to cope with its original mighty 48bhp!Like any Herald, it was only terrifying if you forgot the number one rule of cornering in Heralds / Vitesses / Spitfires: don't think about lifting off the throttle in anything other than a straight line. Even thinking about lifting off is enough to send you backwards into the nearest solid object.
Joking aside - that engine was not ideal for road use. It had almost zero power below 3,500 rpm, and came on cam quite abruptly. It pulled well if you kept the revs high, but would rapidly become 'unhappy' in town driving and start sooting up plugs. I'd also f**ked up with the Dellorto carbs on it - they didn't have much in the way of cold start / choke - I ended up adding the fuel primer system from a Lycoming O235 engine to get a decent cold start system. Sitting outside my student flat on a cold morning, pumping the fuel primer and trying to keep it running is an experience I don't think I'll ever forget. The anti-social exhaust probably didn't make me popular either!
I think, looking back, I would have done better converting the car to a Sprint engine rather than modding the hell out of the 1.3 MK3 Spitfire engine - the Sprint is much better at low revs, and is a much stronger engine to start with. As a bonus, the Herald engine bay also has enough room to put a decent exhaust manifold on the Sprint engine - which you couldn't do in the Dolomite engine bay.
You were so close to what should have been. When I was working in Triumph experimental the first use of the sprint 4v engine was in a 2 door Toledo body. Code name rallyman.
Only the Triumph seniors tested it. The plan was to go into the hot hatch sector, ford escort rallying etc. From what I understand however control came from longbridge product planning and refocused on 4 door body with nice interior, upmarket larger financial margin aimed at BMW sector. What might have been.
Only the Triumph seniors tested it. The plan was to go into the hot hatch sector, ford escort rallying etc. From what I understand however control came from longbridge product planning and refocused on 4 door body with nice interior, upmarket larger financial margin aimed at BMW sector. What might have been.
peter Richardson said:
You were so close to what should have been. When I was working in Triumph experimental the first use of the sprint 4v engine was in a 2 door Toledo body. Code name rallyman.
Only the Triumph seniors tested it. The plan was to go into the hot hatch sector, ford escort rallying etc. From what I understand however control came from longbridge product planning and refocused on 4 door body with nice interior, upmarket larger financial margin aimed at BMW sector. What might have been.
Thanks for the story Peter, to me it seems like the most obvious trick in the book and Triumph really missed out there. What a production car that would have been! I don't suppose any pictures survive, or any more information?Only the Triumph seniors tested it. The plan was to go into the hot hatch sector, ford escort rallying etc. From what I understand however control came from longbridge product planning and refocused on 4 door body with nice interior, upmarket larger financial margin aimed at BMW sector. What might have been.
A few updates from this week, not too much as I’ve been focused on getting the bike ready for the bike show, which sadly got canceled yesterday. Well at least I’ll start the summer with a very clean bike.
So this week I received a notice saying my carb rebuild kit had cleared customs so in preparation I started breaking down the twin carbs I had on the shelf. Our powder coating line is spraying black right now so I started off with the filter box in the hope I could drop it off the next day for paint.
As you can see it’s pretty grotty and rusted so I took a wire wheel to it
And some rust killer to future proof it.
Finally I left the carbs in engine cleaner to soak some of the grot away overnight.
And that’s this weeks updates dudes!
So this week I received a notice saying my carb rebuild kit had cleared customs so in preparation I started breaking down the twin carbs I had on the shelf. Our powder coating line is spraying black right now so I started off with the filter box in the hope I could drop it off the next day for paint.
As you can see it’s pretty grotty and rusted so I took a wire wheel to it
And some rust killer to future proof it.
Finally I left the carbs in engine cleaner to soak some of the grot away overnight.
And that’s this weeks updates dudes!
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