Ferrari Dino kit-car, race car project. Any info??
Discussion
Thought I would post up details of a new project which my mate Greg and I have taken on; a Ferrari 246 dino replica kit car!
I came across it completely by chance when a work customer mentioned that her boss had come across an abandoned kit-car in the garage of a derelict house he had just bought. He seemed to think it was a marcos but basically had no idea, so my friend and I checked it out and offered to put in £100 each.
He was more than happy with his £200 and we were more than happy with our new race/hillclimb project!
Its never been finished or registered, absolutely nowhere near in fact, and the thing had sat untouched for around 20 years.
My mate and I have tasty road-cars already and have both been keen to get into motorsport for as long as i can remember. We've been spectating and karting since we were kids but it's time to start mixing with the bigger boys now! And we reckon we have the basis for something quite special, very light, short and compact with perfect weight-distribution and good looks!
It had been fitted with a mid-mounted ford essex 3.0 v6 mounted to a beetle gearbox via an adapter plate. I'm not sure whether the gearbox was upside down, or the diff inside was upside down, but something must have been done to get it driving the right way as it's facing the opposite way to how it sits in a beetle.
Regardless, the engine was completely full of water as the garage had been flooded under at least a couple of feet a few years back, would've only made about 135bhp anway, and would have destroyed the beetle box in no time. Basically, it would have made a great boat anchor. So we unbolted it and put it in the bin. Having removed the body from the chassis we were pretty damn pleased with the geometry and construction of the thing, with a full purpose built tubular chassis, double wishbones all round, inboard front shocks and springs operated by rocker arms, un-used adjustable spax coilovers etc.
So with the body off, all the suspension off, and the running gear in the bin, we threw the chassis and body in the back of my tree-surgen mate's tipper truck and carted it off to my mates back yard until I have space in my unit (when the jag is finished and out the way!).
So what running gear to drop in it? Well, it just happens that my partner in the project recently stripped his audi 80 2.6 v6, very carefully preserving the entire loom, ECU, pedal box, engine and box, etc. etc. The idea being to make a mid engined beetle using the longitudinal aluminium audi v6 and transaxle.
But we reckon mid-mounted in an 850kg fiberglass ferrari replica with double wishbones and in-board coilovers is a far worthier home!
All measured up it should fit beautifully with a little tweaking and some custom driveshafts, even the gear-linkage originally made up for the beetle box is pretty close to ideal.
We will be building the car to FIA hillclimb spec, with a full welded cage, race tank, aluminium floors/bulkheads, plumbed in fire-extinguisher etc. flat-bottomed with splitter/diffuser, etc. We're considering having some steel rims banded for now (9" fronts and 11" rears) until we can afford something lighter.
We should be able to get around 190bhp from the Audi V6, equating to 0-60 in around 5.5 seconds and 140+mph.
Better still, all the longitudinally mounted audi engines of this era have the same stud-pattern on the bellhousing, which means any audi v6 or v8 will go on to our now RWD transaxle. We've seen several Audi s8 4.2 V8 350bhp engines going for little over a grand, which would equate to a near bugatti veyron power-weight ratio, but with the original V6 gear ratios (145mph @ 6500rpm) would give absolutely savage acceleration, ideal for sprints and hillclimbs.
Stripped audi v6 donor:
I am pretty sure it is a Karma, or a karma body at least.
There seems to have been a hell of a lot of variations produced by karma. Most of them seem to have beetle engines, rear-mounted a la beetle using various beetle suspension bits. I have seen them with various other engines still rear mounted on a beetle gearbox, and the last one I saw for sale on ebay a few weeks ago had a rover V8.....in the front! There is no way the suspension set up on this would allow a front mounted engine.
This one is properly mid-engined and used no beetle bits at all (except the scrap gearbox).
All the wishbones/springs/shocks etc. are bespoke, even the rear uprights containing the hubs.
I am not sure what car the actual hubs and brakes are off though. They are 5 stud. Front brakes are pretty large vented discs with two pot calipers, rear brakes are big 9" drums. I'm thinking possibly late eighties ford granada but thats a stab in the dark.
Of course the brakes will be coming in for some attention, likely being junked altogether for something newer, but bearing in mind the low weight I don't think they have to be massive. We'll have to suck it and see I guess!
As for the shape of the doors, again there seems to have been a lot of variations!
The doors and windscreen need some attention on this as they look awful and the visibility through the screen is pathetic. Not good for clipping apex's up a twisty tree-lined hill! The roof is a little too low and the screen at too shallow an angle so you end up looking through a letter-box. We are looking for a different screen (it must be of laminated glass) with a bit more of a wrap-around curve to it.
The plan is then to take a mould of the original roof, then cut the roof off across the top of the screen and flex the screen and pillars up a little closer to the shape of the original. Then we can make a new foof panel from the mould and just clip it on over the top like a removable lid.
To save weight we will be using fixed polycarbonate side windows, so we can basically cut the frame off the top of the door, remake a simple frame from thin steel tube fixed into the door to suit the new roofline, and then fixed windows. The screen/roof/pillars will be bolted to the roll cage by bonding steel plates into the shell and then drilling/tapping fixings that clamp to the cage, so we can do what we want with it really without compomising the strength of it.
We are going to cut the GRP floor out of the shell, weld the cage directly to the chassis creating a super-stiff full space frame from which we can hang the steering column and pedal box, then drop the body on over the top and then rivet and bond-in new aluminium floor pans and bulkheads.
So thats a quick run-down for now, obviously there are miles miles more details to be decided and we don't expect to have it running this year really. But we are deadly serious and in it for the long-haul. My wonderful mrs has just bought me the MSA racing license starter pack for my birthday so I can finally get my ARDS test done and earn my national competition license!
Bring it on!!!!!!
I came across it completely by chance when a work customer mentioned that her boss had come across an abandoned kit-car in the garage of a derelict house he had just bought. He seemed to think it was a marcos but basically had no idea, so my friend and I checked it out and offered to put in £100 each.
He was more than happy with his £200 and we were more than happy with our new race/hillclimb project!
Its never been finished or registered, absolutely nowhere near in fact, and the thing had sat untouched for around 20 years.
My mate and I have tasty road-cars already and have both been keen to get into motorsport for as long as i can remember. We've been spectating and karting since we were kids but it's time to start mixing with the bigger boys now! And we reckon we have the basis for something quite special, very light, short and compact with perfect weight-distribution and good looks!
It had been fitted with a mid-mounted ford essex 3.0 v6 mounted to a beetle gearbox via an adapter plate. I'm not sure whether the gearbox was upside down, or the diff inside was upside down, but something must have been done to get it driving the right way as it's facing the opposite way to how it sits in a beetle.
Regardless, the engine was completely full of water as the garage had been flooded under at least a couple of feet a few years back, would've only made about 135bhp anway, and would have destroyed the beetle box in no time. Basically, it would have made a great boat anchor. So we unbolted it and put it in the bin. Having removed the body from the chassis we were pretty damn pleased with the geometry and construction of the thing, with a full purpose built tubular chassis, double wishbones all round, inboard front shocks and springs operated by rocker arms, un-used adjustable spax coilovers etc.
So with the body off, all the suspension off, and the running gear in the bin, we threw the chassis and body in the back of my tree-surgen mate's tipper truck and carted it off to my mates back yard until I have space in my unit (when the jag is finished and out the way!).
So what running gear to drop in it? Well, it just happens that my partner in the project recently stripped his audi 80 2.6 v6, very carefully preserving the entire loom, ECU, pedal box, engine and box, etc. etc. The idea being to make a mid engined beetle using the longitudinal aluminium audi v6 and transaxle.
But we reckon mid-mounted in an 850kg fiberglass ferrari replica with double wishbones and in-board coilovers is a far worthier home!
All measured up it should fit beautifully with a little tweaking and some custom driveshafts, even the gear-linkage originally made up for the beetle box is pretty close to ideal.
We will be building the car to FIA hillclimb spec, with a full welded cage, race tank, aluminium floors/bulkheads, plumbed in fire-extinguisher etc. flat-bottomed with splitter/diffuser, etc. We're considering having some steel rims banded for now (9" fronts and 11" rears) until we can afford something lighter.
We should be able to get around 190bhp from the Audi V6, equating to 0-60 in around 5.5 seconds and 140+mph.
Better still, all the longitudinally mounted audi engines of this era have the same stud-pattern on the bellhousing, which means any audi v6 or v8 will go on to our now RWD transaxle. We've seen several Audi s8 4.2 V8 350bhp engines going for little over a grand, which would equate to a near bugatti veyron power-weight ratio, but with the original V6 gear ratios (145mph @ 6500rpm) would give absolutely savage acceleration, ideal for sprints and hillclimbs.
Stripped audi v6 donor:
I am pretty sure it is a Karma, or a karma body at least.
There seems to have been a hell of a lot of variations produced by karma. Most of them seem to have beetle engines, rear-mounted a la beetle using various beetle suspension bits. I have seen them with various other engines still rear mounted on a beetle gearbox, and the last one I saw for sale on ebay a few weeks ago had a rover V8.....in the front! There is no way the suspension set up on this would allow a front mounted engine.
This one is properly mid-engined and used no beetle bits at all (except the scrap gearbox).
All the wishbones/springs/shocks etc. are bespoke, even the rear uprights containing the hubs.
I am not sure what car the actual hubs and brakes are off though. They are 5 stud. Front brakes are pretty large vented discs with two pot calipers, rear brakes are big 9" drums. I'm thinking possibly late eighties ford granada but thats a stab in the dark.
Of course the brakes will be coming in for some attention, likely being junked altogether for something newer, but bearing in mind the low weight I don't think they have to be massive. We'll have to suck it and see I guess!
As for the shape of the doors, again there seems to have been a lot of variations!
The doors and windscreen need some attention on this as they look awful and the visibility through the screen is pathetic. Not good for clipping apex's up a twisty tree-lined hill! The roof is a little too low and the screen at too shallow an angle so you end up looking through a letter-box. We are looking for a different screen (it must be of laminated glass) with a bit more of a wrap-around curve to it.
The plan is then to take a mould of the original roof, then cut the roof off across the top of the screen and flex the screen and pillars up a little closer to the shape of the original. Then we can make a new foof panel from the mould and just clip it on over the top like a removable lid.
To save weight we will be using fixed polycarbonate side windows, so we can basically cut the frame off the top of the door, remake a simple frame from thin steel tube fixed into the door to suit the new roofline, and then fixed windows. The screen/roof/pillars will be bolted to the roll cage by bonding steel plates into the shell and then drilling/tapping fixings that clamp to the cage, so we can do what we want with it really without compomising the strength of it.
We are going to cut the GRP floor out of the shell, weld the cage directly to the chassis creating a super-stiff full space frame from which we can hang the steering column and pedal box, then drop the body on over the top and then rivet and bond-in new aluminium floor pans and bulkheads.
So thats a quick run-down for now, obviously there are miles miles more details to be decided and we don't expect to have it running this year really. But we are deadly serious and in it for the long-haul. My wonderful mrs has just bought me the MSA racing license starter pack for my birthday so I can finally get my ARDS test done and earn my national competition license!
Bring it on!!!!!!
Yeah the chassis is pretty OTT!
We will be chopping and changing it a fair bit and have considered re-making it at some point.
It is well set-out and will be very stiff with a cage on though, and once the cage is on we can put the chassis on a diet to relieve some of the over-kill.
Like I say, it looks like a karma to me but the only beetle part was the gearbox, there are no other beetle bits at all. It's designed and constructed far better than most I've seen.
There's an awful to do but at the moment we have the complete car and new running gear, most of the electrics, column, pedal box, etc for £200! Mustn't grumble.......
We will be chopping and changing it a fair bit and have considered re-making it at some point.
It is well set-out and will be very stiff with a cage on though, and once the cage is on we can put the chassis on a diet to relieve some of the over-kill.
Like I say, it looks like a karma to me but the only beetle part was the gearbox, there are no other beetle bits at all. It's designed and constructed far better than most I've seen.
There's an awful to do but at the moment we have the complete car and new running gear, most of the electrics, column, pedal box, etc for £200! Mustn't grumble.......
Sat untouched for around 20 years! I dare say it has faired pretty well. Nice project, definately looking forward to the build! Well we've had a tinker and made some progress.
After pulling out Greg's back door frame we carried the chassis and running gear into the cellar where we can get stuck-in whatever the weather, trial building it and getting all the mechanicals to work. Then we can strip it all back down, clean and paint, get it back out, transport everything off to my unit and build it up into a complete car.
Gregs old Audi has donated a vast array of bits that will end up on this, as we have the complete loom and all the electrical gubbins, pedal box, column, clocks, engine and box, etc.
So we got busy with lot's of manuevering of the engine, cutting odd bits off the chassis, measuring and lining up until happy with the position of the engine, keeping the driveshafts straight and level etc. As luck would have it, the position of the driveshafts has dictated that we must allow room in front of the engine to easily fit an audi V8 in there, so that plan has to be a goer at some point....
The audi shafts are perfect in length and with a bit of fiddling (welding!) we'll get them to work, for now at least.
We've also been weighing up options for a roll cage and chassis strengthening/stiffening (of which there is a bit required!) and ideas for front-mounting the rad near horizontal with scoops and ducting etc. I've done a couple of rough pics on photoshop so we can get the idea....
We were weighing up the pedal box honest....not just sat there goin brum brum!
We don't have any intention to make this a proper dino replica in any way, it's purely for speed and competition, so we're hoping to end up with something like this:
After pulling out Greg's back door frame we carried the chassis and running gear into the cellar where we can get stuck-in whatever the weather, trial building it and getting all the mechanicals to work. Then we can strip it all back down, clean and paint, get it back out, transport everything off to my unit and build it up into a complete car.
Gregs old Audi has donated a vast array of bits that will end up on this, as we have the complete loom and all the electrical gubbins, pedal box, column, clocks, engine and box, etc.
So we got busy with lot's of manuevering of the engine, cutting odd bits off the chassis, measuring and lining up until happy with the position of the engine, keeping the driveshafts straight and level etc. As luck would have it, the position of the driveshafts has dictated that we must allow room in front of the engine to easily fit an audi V8 in there, so that plan has to be a goer at some point....
The audi shafts are perfect in length and with a bit of fiddling (welding!) we'll get them to work, for now at least.
We've also been weighing up options for a roll cage and chassis strengthening/stiffening (of which there is a bit required!) and ideas for front-mounting the rad near horizontal with scoops and ducting etc. I've done a couple of rough pics on photoshop so we can get the idea....
We were weighing up the pedal box honest....not just sat there goin brum brum!
We don't have any intention to make this a proper dino replica in any way, it's purely for speed and competition, so we're hoping to end up with something like this:
Edited by oversteerxj12 on Wednesday 2nd June 05:53
12joe340 said:
end of the day its a fake ferrari and for that reason i dont like it, in the same way that if i man in a club dressed as a woman came onto me i wouldnt like it, if you dont agree with me then fair enough have a nice day 
I do agree with you, I hate fake ferrari's, finding them pointless and a tedious waste of time and money. The fact is that we came across this for £200 and already had access to ideal running gear for it. End of the day, it weighs very little, will be fast, and handle very well, so I do like it.
The fact that it is supposed to look a bit like a ferrari is irrelevent to us and we will not be spending a penny making it look any further like something it isn't.
I think it's an awesome project. Back in the day the Karma wasn't marketed as a replica. The way the industry is these days you won't like many kit cars if you don't approve of 'replicas'. The Karma is about as close to a Dino as all the 'Sevens' are to a Lotus and all the 'Cobras' are to an AC!!
Found this, by the way!
Found this, by the way!
Nice project.
Not really an engineer and don't know if you are trying to keep it road legal so don't flame me on this but if you are effectively creating a space frame with the body "just" sitting on it have you considered chopping the roof and rear butresses off completely and going a kind of Lotus 2 Eleven route?
Lack of visibility cured, no messing about with window alterations etc, a load of "high up" weight off and it could look pretty good as well.
Not really an engineer and don't know if you are trying to keep it road legal so don't flame me on this but if you are effectively creating a space frame with the body "just" sitting on it have you considered chopping the roof and rear butresses off completely and going a kind of Lotus 2 Eleven route?
Lack of visibility cured, no messing about with window alterations etc, a load of "high up" weight off and it could look pretty good as well.
ManOpener said:
Galsia said:
Thats going to be great when its finished. Nice to see that you are doing womthing different with it...
It's a fab little project. Take inspiration from the 60's and 70's Ferrari racers like the 512LM and the 330 P3 and make something utterly mad.
my 2p would be to whizz the roof and windscreen off and create a CanAm style spider, not only would it be more fun, but it would also remove the aspects of the karma body that IMHO really dont work
Something along the same lines as this
just to add another engine option to your list, a member on here had a front engined Ford powered one (the sad git had it badged up as a Ferrari and cringingly told everybody it was real!)
Edited by AndrewW-G on Wednesday 2nd June 14:17
We had considered removing the roof completely but we're put off by two things:
1)Aerodynamics
2)British weather!
We're hoping to spend some time at trackdays besides hillclimbing and hopefully circuit racing at some point, so sooner or later it's going to throw it down and we'd rather be covered!
And yes, we will be turning it into something utterly mad! We plan to get the car running with the V6, try to iron out any niggles and get it handling. In due time we plan to re-make some or all of the chassis, fit larger brakes, rose-joint the suspension and add some adjustability, and get hold of an S8 4.2 v8. Then we can start tuning with that.......We reckon 400bhp per ton is acheivable which should be sufficiently bonkers!
1)Aerodynamics
2)British weather!
We're hoping to spend some time at trackdays besides hillclimbing and hopefully circuit racing at some point, so sooner or later it's going to throw it down and we'd rather be covered!
And yes, we will be turning it into something utterly mad! We plan to get the car running with the V6, try to iron out any niggles and get it handling. In due time we plan to re-make some or all of the chassis, fit larger brakes, rose-joint the suspension and add some adjustability, and get hold of an S8 4.2 v8. Then we can start tuning with that.......We reckon 400bhp per ton is acheivable which should be sufficiently bonkers!
oversteerxj12 said:
And yes, we will be turning it into something utterly mad! We plan to get the car running with the V6, try to iron out any niggles and get it handling. In due time we plan to re-make some or all of the chassis, fit larger brakes, rose-joint the suspension and add some adjustability, and get hold of an S8 4.2 v8. Then we can start tuning with that.......We reckon 400bhp per ton is acheivable which should be sufficiently bonkers!
Presumably your going to be running it on some kind of stand-alone ECU? I wonder how well the 4.2l Audi V8's respond to throttle bodies?Oh wait, really well!
ManOpener said:
oversteerxj12 said:
And yes, we will be turning it into something utterly mad! We plan to get the car running with the V6, try to iron out any niggles and get it handling. In due time we plan to re-make some or all of the chassis, fit larger brakes, rose-joint the suspension and add some adjustability, and get hold of an S8 4.2 v8. Then we can start tuning with that.......We reckon 400bhp per ton is acheivable which should be sufficiently bonkers!
Presumably your going to be running it on some kind of stand-alone ECU? I wonder how well the 4.2l Audi V8's respond to throttle bodies?Oh wait, really well!
Gonna stick with the V6 for now though, it's already here and plenty pokey enough to be fun until we feel the need!
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