Selling, Private vs Sale or Return
Discussion
So the time has come to sell the Cayman S Sport, the best car I have owned so far by a country mile but pending house move is the priority.
I've heard lots of people on here suggest Sale or Return as a good alternative to private sale.
Can someone furnish me with some details around the commercials the dealer would expect ie fixed fee or %?
Thanks
I've heard lots of people on here suggest Sale or Return as a good alternative to private sale.
Can someone furnish me with some details around the commercials the dealer would expect ie fixed fee or %?
Thanks
I had a poor experience with a SOR deal a few years ago. I did get my money in the end but it was a worry for quite a few weeks. Even some respected dealers have gone to the wall owing money (Hollingsworth/Saffron etc).
I personally know of a guy who SOR'd his Gallardo through a respected (sic) dealer and is still waiting for his dough even though the car was sold in March!
I personally know of a guy who SOR'd his Gallardo through a respected (sic) dealer and is still waiting for his dough even though the car was sold in March!
Edited by Martian O on Wednesday 10th August 23:36
Martian O said:
I had a poor experience with a SOR deal a few years ago. I did get my money in the end but it was a worry for quite a few weeks. Even some respected dealers have gone to the wall owing money (Hollingsworth/Saffron etc).
I personally know of a guy who SOR'd his Gallardo through a respected (sic) dealer and is still waiting for his dough even though the car was sold in March!
Thanks, good to know. I personally know of a guy who SOR'd his Gallardo through a respected (sic) dealer and is still waiting for his dough even though the car was sold in March!
Edited by Martian O on Wednesday 10th August 23:36
There are definite risks selling sale or return. If the deal sounds too good to be true it probably is. The warning sign is a huge difference between outright and sale or return prices. All you save as a dealer is the finance cost of putting it into stock which is less than £500 per car depending on value.
The time when sale or retun does work is with cars which are hard to value either due to their rarity / the market or very expensive cars. The garage still need to cover their costs and make a margin if they are to stay in business. It's also worth remembering that as a buyer you are generally less protected buying a customer's car SOR than a dealer's stock car, so they probably need to be a bit cheaper. This goes against the fact that in most cases they are actually more expensive than the dealer's stock cars.
We have a section on our website which outlines the risks http://www.911virgin.com/content/saleorreturn/
We do get involved in sale or return but they tend to be quite specific cars. When we do SOR we see it as a bonus to our main business and there are no up front fees, something else to watch out for. If the garage are so sure the car will sell why are they charging you to put it into stock?
What ever you decide to do good luck with the sale.
Henry
The time when sale or retun does work is with cars which are hard to value either due to their rarity / the market or very expensive cars. The garage still need to cover their costs and make a margin if they are to stay in business. It's also worth remembering that as a buyer you are generally less protected buying a customer's car SOR than a dealer's stock car, so they probably need to be a bit cheaper. This goes against the fact that in most cases they are actually more expensive than the dealer's stock cars.
We have a section on our website which outlines the risks http://www.911virgin.com/content/saleorreturn/
We do get involved in sale or return but they tend to be quite specific cars. When we do SOR we see it as a bonus to our main business and there are no up front fees, something else to watch out for. If the garage are so sure the car will sell why are they charging you to put it into stock?
What ever you decide to do good luck with the sale.
Henry
Henry-F said:
There are definite risks selling sale or return. If the deal sounds too good to be true it probably is. The warning sign is a huge difference between outright and sale or return prices. All you save as a dealer is the finance cost of putting it into stock which is less than £500 per car depending on value.
The time when sale or retun does work is with cars which are hard to value either due to their rarity / the market or very expensive cars. The garage still need to cover their costs and make a margin if they are to stay in business. It's also worth remembering that as a buyer you are generally less protected buying a customer's car SOR than a dealer's stock car, so they probably need to be a bit cheaper. This goes against the fact that in most cases they are actually more expensive than the dealer's stock cars.
We have a section on our website which outlines the risks http://www.911virgin.com/content/saleorreturn/
We do get involved in sale or return but they tend to be quite specific cars. When we do SOR we see it as a bonus to our main business and there are no up front fees, something else to watch out for. If the garage are so sure the car will sell why are they charging you to put it into stock?
What ever you decide to do good luck with the sale.
Henry
The time when sale or retun does work is with cars which are hard to value either due to their rarity / the market or very expensive cars. The garage still need to cover their costs and make a margin if they are to stay in business. It's also worth remembering that as a buyer you are generally less protected buying a customer's car SOR than a dealer's stock car, so they probably need to be a bit cheaper. This goes against the fact that in most cases they are actually more expensive than the dealer's stock cars.
We have a section on our website which outlines the risks http://www.911virgin.com/content/saleorreturn/
We do get involved in sale or return but they tend to be quite specific cars. When we do SOR we see it as a bonus to our main business and there are no up front fees, something else to watch out for. If the garage are so sure the car will sell why are they charging you to put it into stock?
What ever you decide to do good luck with the sale.
Henry
Henry, Thanks very much indeed, a potential minefield then!
I read through the article you highlighted, very informative. Do any dealers offer to sell the car for a fixed fee or is it always a percentage of the final sale price?
The speed in which these cars are dropping in value it may be prudent to sell it straight away...we just sold a Sport, it dropped 1150 in the glasses guide in June, if the car is sat hanging around at a dealership for a few months and you end up taking it back, you may end up with less than if you had sold it to the trade today.
Worth thinking about.
POORCARDEALER said:
The speed in which these cars are dropping in value it may be prudent to sell it straight away...we just sold a Sport, it dropped 1150 in the glasses guide in June, if the car is sat hanging around at a dealership for a few months and you end up taking it back, you may end up with less than if you had sold it to the trade today.
Worth thinking about.
Worth thinking about.
Indeed, thanks for the info, much appreciated.
Sideways Rich said:
I read through the article you highlighted, very informative. Do any dealers offer to sell the car for a fixed fee or is it always a percentage of the final sale price?
We sometimes take cars on SOR, usually from existing clients but not exclusively, and we look at each deal on a case by case basis. In general, if the owner doesn't need the money with any urgency then the extra we will return following an SOR retail sale is worthwhile waiting for, if they need the money quickly then a trade sale is the way to go.If you do a forum search you'll find various threads on the subject on which Henry and I have both posted. He's right to advise caution but has also now conceded an understanding as to why we do SOR sometimes. It might not cost much for the interest on a stocking loan (as he says), but we don't have and don't want any debt (in fact, the last time my bank manager got in touch it was to ask me to sell his son's car as he was emigrating
), so SOR enables us to take on additional vehicles, but also as an add-on to the business rather than the core. AFAIK Henry doesn't finance his business through debt either, but can buy more cars outright as he is conseederabbly reecher than I 
From a customer's perspective, any car bought from us as a retail sale is handled the same way (whether we paid for it before or after selling it, if you see what I mean) - you bought it from us, it's up to us to deal with any issues regardless of how we came by the car or how much we made out of it.
Thanks for the informative responses, I don't urgently need to sell the car but would rather start the process now.
I'm keen on looking at SOR as a valid option as I spend a fair amount of time away with work so it would be convenient from that perspective.
I'd be happy to have a conversation with any of you gents, if an SOR is of interest to you.
Feel free to PM.
I'm keen on looking at SOR as a valid option as I spend a fair amount of time away with work so it would be convenient from that perspective.
I'd be happy to have a conversation with any of you gents, if an SOR is of interest to you.
Feel free to PM.
Hi there.
I think Marcus and I are similar in that because we run our sales businesses in the usual way, ie. We buy cars, then we sell them we see SOR deals as icing on the cake rather than the cake it's self. Contrary to popular belief we do sell customer's cars on behalf but only where appropriate. And (I think) like Marcus we make no up front fees other than a commitment to cover any physical prep work, (excluding valeting, advertising etc) necessary to show the car in the event of it not selling.
Like Mark and his gang we work on a fixed figure to be returned upon completion of sale so we all know where we stand and whether we can do a deal or not when someone comes in with a part exchange. It's worth mentioning people selling cars solely on SOR struggle to take part exchanges when selling your car unless they can find a way of trading it straight out which may not be appropriate when someone is coming out of one Porsche into another.
It's a slightly more complicated topic than is sometimes thought. In this case I think you have armed yourself with all the necessary info and so can make an informed choice.
Henry
I think Marcus and I are similar in that because we run our sales businesses in the usual way, ie. We buy cars, then we sell them we see SOR deals as icing on the cake rather than the cake it's self. Contrary to popular belief we do sell customer's cars on behalf but only where appropriate. And (I think) like Marcus we make no up front fees other than a commitment to cover any physical prep work, (excluding valeting, advertising etc) necessary to show the car in the event of it not selling.
Like Mark and his gang we work on a fixed figure to be returned upon completion of sale so we all know where we stand and whether we can do a deal or not when someone comes in with a part exchange. It's worth mentioning people selling cars solely on SOR struggle to take part exchanges when selling your car unless they can find a way of trading it straight out which may not be appropriate when someone is coming out of one Porsche into another.
It's a slightly more complicated topic than is sometimes thought. In this case I think you have armed yourself with all the necessary info and so can make an informed choice.
Henry
Richard
The above have all said how it works and I have nothing much new to add.
Just to say that the people posting here can be trusted as we are all high profile and have too much to lose.
There are quite a few companies out there who have no assets and do SOR only and they are going to be the ones who cause you problems. New companies have popped up every year in the 14 years I have sold cars.
We hear stories all the time about how someone's cars was sold for a month or 2 and they didn't get the money as these people are using your money to fund their business.
RSJ has probably sold nearly 100 cars I would suspect over the years on SOR.
Done about 4 this year so far.
Used to do a lot in the early years when the business was smaller and extra free cars helped raise the revenue. Not so many now as I try to buy the thing if someone calls up and asks for SOR.
It does work but generally on dearer cars of £40,000 and above where there is a bigger spread on the margin between private sale , trade and retail price.
We just did one for a customer last month.
He was quoted £32000 trade price.
I also offered him £32000 trade to buy on that day which he didnt want and he asked me if I would sell it for him on SOR so I offered him £34000 on SOR and the car sold in 3 weeks so he was £2000 better off so it defintely works.
We prefer to buy to be honest as the margin is bigger but thats where the benefit is to the customer to do SOR.
The best advice I can give anyone considering SOR is to only do it if they have a firm recommendation from someone that they had a good experience with a company. DONT just pick someone who charges the least commision.
Generally I think that all the "high profile " top ten Porsche companies in England will do a good job for you.
Joel
The above have all said how it works and I have nothing much new to add.
Just to say that the people posting here can be trusted as we are all high profile and have too much to lose.
There are quite a few companies out there who have no assets and do SOR only and they are going to be the ones who cause you problems. New companies have popped up every year in the 14 years I have sold cars.
We hear stories all the time about how someone's cars was sold for a month or 2 and they didn't get the money as these people are using your money to fund their business.
RSJ has probably sold nearly 100 cars I would suspect over the years on SOR.
Done about 4 this year so far.
Used to do a lot in the early years when the business was smaller and extra free cars helped raise the revenue. Not so many now as I try to buy the thing if someone calls up and asks for SOR.
It does work but generally on dearer cars of £40,000 and above where there is a bigger spread on the margin between private sale , trade and retail price.
We just did one for a customer last month.
He was quoted £32000 trade price.
I also offered him £32000 trade to buy on that day which he didnt want and he asked me if I would sell it for him on SOR so I offered him £34000 on SOR and the car sold in 3 weeks so he was £2000 better off so it defintely works.
We prefer to buy to be honest as the margin is bigger but thats where the benefit is to the customer to do SOR.
The best advice I can give anyone considering SOR is to only do it if they have a firm recommendation from someone that they had a good experience with a company. DONT just pick someone who charges the least commision.
Generally I think that all the "high profile " top ten Porsche companies in England will do a good job for you.
Joel
I looked at SOR when I was selling recently and decided to treat the transaction as I would had it been my business supplying trade credit to the dealer involved. While the dealer has your car they have your money and should they go pop just after they've sold the car you are in a very grey area and most likely just one of many creditors.
I will confess that I am over cautious with financial matters (although having said that I'm not sure buying/selling a 996 in the past few years could ever be considered cautious given the rapid falling prices!) but my approach did help me to make my decision and running a credit report / checking accounts of a LTD company is a pretty simple process now.
In the end the car was sold within a couple of weeks and I got my money within 2 days of the final sale. There were some preparation costs that were outlined up front (as was the return figure) and even though the car was fully prepared before sale I didn't have to pay for this in advance with the final costs (which were less than the original estimate) simply being taken out of the return when the sale was complete. All in all a very smooth transaction.
Still not happy though as I now wish I hadn't sold the car :-(
I will confess that I am over cautious with financial matters (although having said that I'm not sure buying/selling a 996 in the past few years could ever be considered cautious given the rapid falling prices!) but my approach did help me to make my decision and running a credit report / checking accounts of a LTD company is a pretty simple process now.
In the end the car was sold within a couple of weeks and I got my money within 2 days of the final sale. There were some preparation costs that were outlined up front (as was the return figure) and even though the car was fully prepared before sale I didn't have to pay for this in advance with the final costs (which were less than the original estimate) simply being taken out of the return when the sale was complete. All in all a very smooth transaction.
Still not happy though as I now wish I hadn't sold the car :-(
I would chose SOR every time. I sold mine on SAR through JZ Machtech a few months ago. The service was excellent and I got my money three days after the car was sold. Your car will need to be very good though as JZ Machtech will inspect your car first before taking it on SOR and believe me their inspection is more thorough than an OPC 111 inspection.
fbrs said:
i really struggle to understand why anyone would ever sell sor. you wouldn't lend that much money to someone you don't know so why on earth would you lend it to a second hand car dealer for nothing?
For a better return.The above example quoted by RSJ was £32k leant out for 3 weeks for a £2k return. That's a 108% per year on the investment.
I suspect you may struggle to get that in the bank.
One other advantage of selling via SOR is that, as I understand it, if the car has a warranty it is transferable. So if you have a car with 12 months OPC warranty and sell it to Henry or Mark outright and they prep and on-sell it the warranty is lost. If they sell it SOR it isn't. It is, I think, the only kosher way of buying a car from a non-OPC dealer with an OPC warranty.
williaa68 said:
One other advantage of selling via SOR is that, as I understand it, if the car has a warranty it is transferable. So if you have a car with 12 months OPC warranty and sell it to Henry or Mark outright and they prep and on-sell it the warranty is lost. If they sell it SOR it isn't. It is, I think, the only kosher way of buying a car from a non-OPC dealer with an OPC warranty.
From a buyer's point of view buying a car from us on SOR is no different to buying our stock, the warranty we give, the prep we do etc is all the same, we invoice the customer, then pay the previous owner, the buyer is buying from us, not the previous owner.Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff