993 Mileage Clocking
Discussion
12 years ago I was looking to buy a nice 993 coupe but didn't because of changed circumstances. I thought I'd got it out of my system but the yearning is still there and I've started scoring PH classified for a possible purchase. What strikes me most is that 12 years on the number of cars advetised at 100+k mileages is only slightly greater than 12 years ago and the majority still appear to be in the 40K to 90K range. Am I stuck in a time warp or just cynical?
A lot of people use these kinds of cars as second or third cars - and I'd say the older they are, the more likely that is.
So, they could all be dodgy - but I think I'd believe a 60k 993 was more likely to be genuine than a 60k Ford / Toyota etc. Obviously, it's worth checking history and wear to things like seats etc. to see if it seems to tally up with the mileage.
So, they could all be dodgy - but I think I'd believe a 60k 993 was more likely to be genuine than a 60k Ford / Toyota etc. Obviously, it's worth checking history and wear to things like seats etc. to see if it seems to tally up with the mileage.
Worth getting an on line MOT history check from http://motinfo.direct.gov.uk/internet/jsp/ECHID-In...
You will need the registration number and either the MOT test number from the last certificate or the document number from the current V5C, so ask to see the docs when you view a car and make a note of this info. You will get the date and mileage of every test. Not foolproof, but beware if the increase in mileage is not progressive with age. The check won't cover periods when the car was on another plate, eg personal plate was put on. Any local friendly MOT test station can also provide the same info.
You will need the registration number and either the MOT test number from the last certificate or the document number from the current V5C, so ask to see the docs when you view a car and make a note of this info. You will get the date and mileage of every test. Not foolproof, but beware if the increase in mileage is not progressive with age. The check won't cover periods when the car was on another plate, eg personal plate was put on. Any local friendly MOT test station can also provide the same info.
brian7136 said:
...The check won't cover periods when the car was on another plate, eg personal plate was put on. ....
I believe it does. When I was buying my 348, I did an MOT history check on a couple of cars and it did show registration changes, and included details for each registration. In fact - it was one of the reasons I rejected one of the cars I viewed, because having been told it had been stored for several years of missing service history, I could see it was being MOT'd during that period - and had even had a private plate put on it during that time!Thanks Brian 7136 I wasn't aware of that facility and a useful check. I've noticed many sellers make much of having folders with every MOT and tax disc from new etc. I guess these are pretty meaningless if a previous owner disconnected the speedo between tests so Davek 964's advice on overall condition of internal trim etc. is probably a safer bet.
rickeyt said:
12 years ago I was looking to buy a nice 993 coupe but didn't because of changed circumstances. I thought I'd got it out of my system but the yearning is still there and I've started scoring PH classified for a possible purchase. What strikes me most is that 12 years on the number of cars advetised at 100+k mileages is only slightly greater than 12 years ago and the majority still appear to be in the 40K to 90K range. Am I stuck in a time warp or just cynical?
My car was my only car doing 10k a year for 2 since. Since then I do about 1.5k a year because change of job meant I couldnt use it.So its very possible the millages are genuinly low but also very possible that they have been clocked etc etc.
I guess you just have to buy on condition and documentation. I keep all my old MOTs etc etc and they tie in with service and other reciepts. but even that is easy to fix if they want to.
Again, thanks Davek for your advice. On this same mileage issue - when I read some of the history summaries of work undertaken for the relatively low mileages quoted it does reinforce my suspicions. The 993 is acknowledged as one of Porsche's best engineered models before the accountants took over, designed and built for high performance yet apparently needing regular work done on them which might suggest higher mileage than recorded. They can't always be driven at their limit and should be unstressed for much of the time.
My 930 did less than 1500 miles since Novenber 07.If people have them as toys like I do, then mileage is minimal.When the cars where new they would probably have been the main mode of transport so the mileage would be normal around 10k to 12k a year.It is a few years down the road that the cars become classic and are then used on high days and holidays
You've got to look at the overall picture and then make a judgement. Does the car look like it's done the sort of mileage shown on the clock? Are the seats, pedals, gear knob, carpets, steering wheel etc showing signs of wear? Has anything obviously been replaced? What does the paint/bodywork look like? How dusty is the engine bay? How does the suspension feel? Is the gearbox tight or as slack as a tart? Does the paperwork support the mileage? Are there any obvious holes in the service record? How many dealers has the car been through and how reputable were they?
For example I've got an '82 SC with 49K miles showing on the clock. The interior basically looks like new throughout except it's got that sort of aged patina that you just can't quite replicate in a restoration. The exterior bodywork is almost perfect too, but again with a patina that is clearly not freshly resprayed. The gearbox is tight and clean, the engine revs freely to the red line and the suspension feels sharp with no creaks or groans. The engine bay is clean but not obviously steam cleaned. The supporting paperwork is extensive with service invoices, MOTs and tax discs right back to day 1. So do I believe the mileage? In this case I'd put my house on it being correct. If it has been clocked, somebody has gone into staggering detail to cover it up!
For example I've got an '82 SC with 49K miles showing on the clock. The interior basically looks like new throughout except it's got that sort of aged patina that you just can't quite replicate in a restoration. The exterior bodywork is almost perfect too, but again with a patina that is clearly not freshly resprayed. The gearbox is tight and clean, the engine revs freely to the red line and the suspension feels sharp with no creaks or groans. The engine bay is clean but not obviously steam cleaned. The supporting paperwork is extensive with service invoices, MOTs and tax discs right back to day 1. So do I believe the mileage? In this case I'd put my house on it being correct. If it has been clocked, somebody has gone into staggering detail to cover it up!
Another useful tip Davek. Thanks again. Probably merits another topic but your tyre tip raises another query. I bought a brand new 20v Golf in 1999 which I gave to my daughter a couple of years ago (with 18K miles on the clock - honest!). Couple of months ago she picked up a nail in the centre of its original rear tyre. Took it to National Tyres who refused to mend it telling me to do so was illegal because of its age. My main BMW dealer fixed it without query. If I wish to buy a low mileage 993 with tyres akin to your 348 should I assume they will all need replacing albeit they serve to support the car's provenance.
My 348 handling has been a bit interesting. If you look up the word tramlining in the dictionary, I think you'd see a picture of my car.....
I don't know if that is purely due to the age of the tyres - having covered a couple of thousand miles since buying it, they need replacing soon anyway even if I was ignoring their age. Problem is, I can't actually get 4 tyres of the same brand for it at the moment.
I'm not aware they are illegal at that age - but I admit I'd rather not have tyres that old, even on something like a golf.
I don't know if that is purely due to the age of the tyres - having covered a couple of thousand miles since buying it, they need replacing soon anyway even if I was ignoring their age. Problem is, I can't actually get 4 tyres of the same brand for it at the moment.
I'm not aware they are illegal at that age - but I admit I'd rather not have tyres that old, even on something like a golf.
therevday said:
My 930 did less than 1500 miles since Novenber 07.If people have them as toys like I do, then mileage is minimal.When the cars where new they would probably have been the main mode of transport so the mileage would be normal around 10k to 12k a year.It is a few years down the road that the cars become classic and are then used on high days and holidays
Exactly this. My car did about 400 miles between March 2010 and September 2011.
Sometimes life takes over. Work, family, diy.
I wasn't even going to bother putting it on the road at all until next spring but thought I'd better last month as it really wasn't good leaving it standing like that.
Clocking is rife! but don't be overly suspicious. It's easy to see if a car's a good'un.
PS. We should think ourselves lucky. Those Ferrari lads have it much worse!
KH said:
Blimey Molly, you're suspicious!
Have to say that when I was looking a while back, there was nothing in England under 70,000 miles, and that was a premium. Now they're popping up all over the place. Especially at Dealers.
Not suspicious, just careful! When there is a £10k difference involved it can be worth doing some 'history correction'.Have to say that when I was looking a while back, there was nothing in England under 70,000 miles, and that was a premium. Now they're popping up all over the place. Especially at Dealers.
Its nothing new of course. It was part of the standard prep in the 80's.
As you say, there seems to be quite a few appearing.....
MTR
PS - This is nothing compared to the murky world of the 'classic Ferrari with provenance' where millions are made.
I worked with a chap last year who had a DB9 - commutted from Glasgow to Newcastle every week - before any 'interaction' with the Aston garage he would have 'the mileage corrected', so that he did c1,000 miles between services. In reality he was doing 20,000. Had a perfect service and MOT (only 2!) record. He was so crafty he had a seat cover on the drivers side and even 'stick-on' covers for the pedals. Unbelievable really.
It must be my naivety/law-abiding approach but I was absolutely appalled - he was such a great bloke in all other respects, but when he told me this I couldn't stop thinking that he was a total c88t.
It must be my naivety/law-abiding approach but I was absolutely appalled - he was such a great bloke in all other respects, but when he told me this I couldn't stop thinking that he was a total c88t.
Well bqf, I share the character assessment of your work colleague. Yet I guess he would be the first to criticise a dodgy dealer. It's amazing how depending on the type of miles covered, condition can also mislead. My S-in-L drives a Seat Cupra which does a 500 mile/week motorway commute + another 10k on site visits. 2 years old, showing 80k the car looks and runs as good as new.
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