Best way of ensuring a good older 911 purchase?
Discussion
...or at least, risk-managing the purchase?
I'm after an older 911; I'm tending towards the 993 since good pre-impact bumper cars (my other favourite) are seem expensive at present and are arguably not best kept outside. And while achingly beautiful, are also probably not fast enough to keep me really interested in the long term. Whatever's chosen will be street-parked (albeit in a good neighbourhood), used a few times a week, and will be my only car.
After getting my fingers expensively burnt with an NSX (blame my own foolish impetuosity) I want to de-risk this purchase, as much as possible. Despite the existence of good buying advice (the PH buying guide, threads, and others) I'm relatively time poor and, as perhaps evidenced by the NSX debacle, not the best personality type nor experienced enough to be assessing the car entirely myself.
So, what's the best strategy? Go private, and bank the money saved for unforeseen circumstances? (This certainly didn't work the the NSX.) Any dealer, but then get a 3rd party inspection; if so, by whom? Or a specialist dealer; again, if so, which one to go to and trust?
I'm after an older 911; I'm tending towards the 993 since good pre-impact bumper cars (my other favourite) are seem expensive at present and are arguably not best kept outside. And while achingly beautiful, are also probably not fast enough to keep me really interested in the long term. Whatever's chosen will be street-parked (albeit in a good neighbourhood), used a few times a week, and will be my only car.
After getting my fingers expensively burnt with an NSX (blame my own foolish impetuosity) I want to de-risk this purchase, as much as possible. Despite the existence of good buying advice (the PH buying guide, threads, and others) I'm relatively time poor and, as perhaps evidenced by the NSX debacle, not the best personality type nor experienced enough to be assessing the car entirely myself.
So, what's the best strategy? Go private, and bank the money saved for unforeseen circumstances? (This certainly didn't work the the NSX.) Any dealer, but then get a 3rd party inspection; if so, by whom? Or a specialist dealer; again, if so, which one to go to and trust?
as already been said its worth spending a little bit of your budget of some expert advice.
peter Morgan is good or theres Phil Raby http://www.findaporsche.com/
peter Morgan is good or theres Phil Raby http://www.findaporsche.com/
How to buy an older Porsche? Spend a LOT of time on the various forums learning what to look for. Go to meets and talk to owners of cars you like, most will happily talk for hours about potential problems. Look to buy a car from an enthusiast, who is most likely to be offering the car through the Pistonheads, PCGB or TIpec forums before it's even advertised.
Why buy an old Porsche? That's another issue. If it's your only car, lives outside, and gets intermittent use, then any older car is going to let you down. I don't do any work on my Porsche, and it sits outside getting used a couple of times a week. I spend quite a lot getting all the little problems sorted, and it's not ideal. Cars used regularly, or owned by people happy to do their own spannering, seem to run fine, although obviously there is a lot more maintenance going on. Garage queens, that only come out on sunny days to attend concours shows, also don't throw up so many problems. It's not an issue is you have a runabout to jump into the morning the old Porsche won't start, but I'd be nervous running any older car as a main vehicle when you can buy a new, or nearly new, car for so little and keep the Classic purely for fun.
Why buy an old Porsche? That's another issue. If it's your only car, lives outside, and gets intermittent use, then any older car is going to let you down. I don't do any work on my Porsche, and it sits outside getting used a couple of times a week. I spend quite a lot getting all the little problems sorted, and it's not ideal. Cars used regularly, or owned by people happy to do their own spannering, seem to run fine, although obviously there is a lot more maintenance going on. Garage queens, that only come out on sunny days to attend concours shows, also don't throw up so many problems. It's not an issue is you have a runabout to jump into the morning the old Porsche won't start, but I'd be nervous running any older car as a main vehicle when you can buy a new, or nearly new, car for so little and keep the Classic purely for fun.
I walked in to OPC West London exactly a year ago and bought a 15 year old M reg 993 cabrio with 35k miles on the clock, 3 owners and mint condition for 24k. It has been running faultlessly for 12 months now and done 4000 miles this year. I found it so fun to drive that i sold my 997 tt a couple of months ago. These cars are very well build. Buy the best one you can afford and you will not be disappointed. You can't do an awful lot wrong with these cars but buy on condition.
mft said:
...or at least, risk-managing the purchase?
Or a specialist dealer; again, if so, which one to go to and trust?
The only specialist dealer I have dealt with recently is Tom at 911Virgin & would def. recommend them for a 993 purchase as they often stock them and seem very honest in their descriptions of the cars.Or a specialist dealer; again, if so, which one to go to and trust?
I'd give Tom or Henry a ring and speak to them about what you're looking for and what type of budget; they could then contact you if anything suitable was coming into stock.
I'm sure there are others such as Stirlings etc but I don't have any actual experience with them.
Good Luck.
I think you have a few choices depending on budget. In order of total cost and effort on your part:-
1/ Buy privately with a comprehensive specialist inspection by the likes of Peter Morgan
2/ Get a specialist like Peter Morgan or Adrian Crawford to source a suitable car for you
3/ Buy from a classic specialist Porsche dealer like Autofarm, Paul Stephens etc.
1/ Buy privately with a comprehensive specialist inspection by the likes of Peter Morgan
2/ Get a specialist like Peter Morgan or Adrian Crawford to source a suitable car for you
3/ Buy from a classic specialist Porsche dealer like Autofarm, Paul Stephens etc.
I believe that Specialist Cars of Malton offer a comprehensive year long warranty on the cars they sell.
Mark Mullen who posts on this forum works there, and will be able to shed some light on what they offer. They will be considerably more expensive than a private purchase, but you would get some peace of mind by purchasing from them.
(I am not a SCM fan boy, I have never used them, I don't personaly know Mark or the boss John, but at their big breakfast meet a couple of weeks ago they had some lovely cars, and good workshop / body shop facilities)
Mark Mullen who posts on this forum works there, and will be able to shed some light on what they offer. They will be considerably more expensive than a private purchase, but you would get some peace of mind by purchasing from them.
(I am not a SCM fan boy, I have never used them, I don't personaly know Mark or the boss John, but at their big breakfast meet a couple of weeks ago they had some lovely cars, and good workshop / body shop facilities)
Do your reseach on the model you want web sites etc. Maybe go to car shows, talk to owners there is one at the NEC next month. Also take someone with you,to a viewing a nice paint job and a Porsche badge can hide many horrors.
I looked at 12 911's before I found mine. Also have a PPI done, service history, has the car been looked after. Also the reason you want one in the first place, is it a weekend car, a daily drive. Running cost of ownership mine around £1k- £2k a year, items get worn out on all cars so money has to be spent and sooner of later a owner or two down the line has to pay out on the car. Spare cash for a big bill maybe?. Are you a DIY person I do few jobs on my car, some jobs and a service go to a Porsche Tech chap. Also are you going to use it only in the summer, that is what I do SORN in the winter and time then to do the jobs on the car ready for next year.
In the end its your call your money. 'As always buyer beware'
I looked at 12 911's before I found mine. Also have a PPI done, service history, has the car been looked after. Also the reason you want one in the first place, is it a weekend car, a daily drive. Running cost of ownership mine around £1k- £2k a year, items get worn out on all cars so money has to be spent and sooner of later a owner or two down the line has to pay out on the car. Spare cash for a big bill maybe?. Are you a DIY person I do few jobs on my car, some jobs and a service go to a Porsche Tech chap. Also are you going to use it only in the summer, that is what I do SORN in the winter and time then to do the jobs on the car ready for next year.
In the end its your call your money. 'As always buyer beware'
Edited by SEE YA on Wednesday 26th October 13:13
Thanks for all of the advice. 
I'm after an older 911 because they're what appeal to me. I've looked at 997s and Caymans, and they just don't have that something (plus the Cayman's too ugly at the rear end, which is a shame). I look at a Cayman and just think 'well, why not get a diesel Golf instead - much more sensible". They just don't have that extra emotional something I need to commit.
I fully appreciate the "do your research", "read up on the forums", "I saw 12 cars before I found mine" advice but I simply don't have a life that can accommodate taking on that burden myself at present. Also, it probably speaks volumes for my personality type that I've never seen more than a single example of a car before buying it!
Budget is flexible; up to £35k if necessary, but given it'll be kept outside, I'd rather not go for something perfect and pristine in the first place, as it would feel wrong to treat it in such a way.
In summary:
Experts: Peter Morgan / Adrian Crawford / Paul Raby
Dealers: 911 Virgin / Autofarm / Paul Stephens / Specialist Cars of Malton
Also, one more question. I'm very conscious that older cars will likely have higher maintenance bills, due to wear and tear, and the gradual deterioration through age. But someone mentioned that a 993, kept outside, would be more likely to let me down of a morning. Why is this? Given Porsche's reputation for engineering (especially with the older models) why wouldn't a well-maintained 993 be reliable?
I'm after an older 911 because they're what appeal to me. I've looked at 997s and Caymans, and they just don't have that something (plus the Cayman's too ugly at the rear end, which is a shame). I look at a Cayman and just think 'well, why not get a diesel Golf instead - much more sensible". They just don't have that extra emotional something I need to commit.
I fully appreciate the "do your research", "read up on the forums", "I saw 12 cars before I found mine" advice but I simply don't have a life that can accommodate taking on that burden myself at present. Also, it probably speaks volumes for my personality type that I've never seen more than a single example of a car before buying it!
Budget is flexible; up to £35k if necessary, but given it'll be kept outside, I'd rather not go for something perfect and pristine in the first place, as it would feel wrong to treat it in such a way.
In summary:
Experts: Peter Morgan / Adrian Crawford / Paul Raby
Dealers: 911 Virgin / Autofarm / Paul Stephens / Specialist Cars of Malton
Also, one more question. I'm very conscious that older cars will likely have higher maintenance bills, due to wear and tear, and the gradual deterioration through age. But someone mentioned that a 993, kept outside, would be more likely to let me down of a morning. Why is this? Given Porsche's reputation for engineering (especially with the older models) why wouldn't a well-maintained 993 be reliable?
mft said:
Also, one more question. I'm very conscious that older cars will likely have higher maintenance bills, due to wear and tear, and the gradual deterioration through age. But someone mentioned that a 993, kept outside, would be more likely to let me down of a morning. Why is this? Given Porsche's reputation for engineering (especially with the older models) why wouldn't a well-maintained 993 be reliable?
For your budget you'll be able to get a very nice n/a non-RS 993. I'm not sure what the poster was thinking of when making that statement; I don't think a properly-maintained 993 will let you down compared to a more modern car even if left outdoors. I had a 993 and then a 996 that were both parked on the street year-round, and never had a problem with either except for the occasional flat battery in the 996. If anything the 996 was more susceptible because the increased number of electronic gadgets seemed to drain the battery quicker, and the overall build quality of the 993 was in my mind superior. The 993 spent 5 winters on my street and I never had a problem.I've used Autofarm and Paul Stephens (another name to add is Cridfords) and they are all very good. (No affiliation). I'd be sure to get a PPI done on any car you are seriously considering, by someone like Peter Morgan. He also does a fairly compact but decent buyer's guide on the 993 (and other models) which is good value for the time-poor that may be worth you looking at as well. (no affiliation there either!).
Good luck!
mft said:
Also, it probably speaks volumes for my personality type that I've never seen more than a single example of a car before buying it!
With this in mind, you most definitely need expert help in finding the car you want. Could also add Gmund to your list of dealers. Seems to have a good reputation in this market.
mft said:
Also, one more question. I'm very conscious that older cars will likely have higher maintenance bills, due to wear and tear, and the gradual deterioration through age. But someone mentioned that a 993, kept outside, would be more likely to let me down of a morning. Why is this? Given Porsche's reputation for engineering (especially with the older models) why wouldn't a well-maintained 993 be reliable?
Don't worry, it's not true. It's actually likely, perhaps even probable, that a 993 will have *lower* maintenance costs per mile than a 996 or 997. So long as you get a good one.
The water-cooled cars have a much longer, more expensive list of common failure items than a 993.
The only thing you need to worry about more with keeping an older car outside than inside is corrosion. 993s can suffer it around the screens, rear bumper supports and elsewhere, so as above - get it checked and/or warranted.
I've just seen your possible budget and although I hav'nt used Stirlings, I understand their prep. of cars for sale is top notch.
They currently have a very nice looking, low mileage 993 C4 for sale at a price of £34,995; this is a top price for a narrow body 993, but cars with low mileage like this one are becoming few & far between. I think it's been for sale for a few weeks, so there might be a deal to be done if no part-ex. Also, with a 993 of this mileage there is less likelyhood of rust etc if it's been properly looked after.
Link for the car is: http://www.stirlings.co.uk/detail.php?id=12
As I said, I've no experience or connection with Stirlings, but they do seem to have a good reputation & good cars.
Good Luck.
They currently have a very nice looking, low mileage 993 C4 for sale at a price of £34,995; this is a top price for a narrow body 993, but cars with low mileage like this one are becoming few & far between. I think it's been for sale for a few weeks, so there might be a deal to be done if no part-ex. Also, with a 993 of this mileage there is less likelyhood of rust etc if it's been properly looked after.
Link for the car is: http://www.stirlings.co.uk/detail.php?id=12
As I said, I've no experience or connection with Stirlings, but they do seem to have a good reputation & good cars.
Good Luck.
Edited by carcrazypop on Wednesday 26th October 14:08
carcrazypop said:
I've just seen your possible budget and although I hav'nt used Stirlings, I understand their prep. of cars for sale is top notch.
They currently have a very nice looking, low mileage 993 C4 for sale at a price of £34,995; this is a top price for a narrow body 993, but cars with low mileage like this one are becoming few & far between. I think it's been for sale for a few weeks, so there might be a deal to be done if no part-ex. Also, with a 993 of this mileage there is less likelyhood of rust etc if it's been properly looked after.
Link for the car is: http://www.stirlings.co.uk/detail.php?id=12
Lovely - thanks for the suggestion. Trouble is, that's probably edging into that category of cars that are too nice to drive on gritted roads and keep on the street over the winter, and not pamper in a warm garage!They currently have a very nice looking, low mileage 993 C4 for sale at a price of £34,995; this is a top price for a narrow body 993, but cars with low mileage like this one are becoming few & far between. I think it's been for sale for a few weeks, so there might be a deal to be done if no part-ex. Also, with a 993 of this mileage there is less likelyhood of rust etc if it's been properly looked after.
Link for the car is: http://www.stirlings.co.uk/detail.php?id=12
mollytherocker said:
Firstly, considering your comments, number one is get it inspected by someone like Peter Morgan.
Like most older cars, much care is needed when buying, there is a lot of tat out there.
What is your budget?
MTR
I used Mr.Morgans services on both of my last 2 porsches a 993 and a 3.2. The 993 I didn't even see until it was delivered and the old car taken away. No regrets what so ever.Like most older cars, much care is needed when buying, there is a lot of tat out there.
What is your budget?
MTR
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