997.1 GT3, buying with or without Ceramic breaks?
Discussion
Hi, I'm lucky enough to be in the position to by a 997.1 GT3 this week, but I can't make up my mind on a few things, some advice would be much appreciated.
Should I buy one with ceramics, or will the replacement pads kill me financially?
Am I right in thinking its £2000 for the set?....
Are there any other must haves?
Should I buy one with ceramics, or will the replacement pads kill me financially?
Am I right in thinking its £2000 for the set?....
Are there any other must haves?
Picked mine up last Saturday so I think I'm qualified on this subject 
For me and my usage, the ceramics replacement cost put me off.
The standard brakes are superb anyway, so unless you are going to need them for track work - although some still prefer non ceramics for this as well - I would steer away personally.
There is a fair amount of choice at the moment so have fun shopping and good luck.
They are truly superb!
For me and my usage, the ceramics replacement cost put me off.
The standard brakes are superb anyway, so unless you are going to need them for track work - although some still prefer non ceramics for this as well - I would steer away personally.
There is a fair amount of choice at the moment so have fun shopping and good luck.
They are truly superb!
I think pads are very similar prices steel or ceramic, they may even be the same pad? It's the discs that cost a fortune. If you are tracking and using up disc and pad material then steel is probably 98% of the efficiency at significantly less cost to run. On the road, theoretically the discs last ages and no brake dust issues. You also have a weight saving with the ceramics. After 2 cars with steel I would have ceramic without too much worry but I would be unlikely to pay extra for them on a used car, maybe a tad.
Both set ups are very capable at stopping the car.
Both set ups are very capable at stopping the car.
I believe the pads for ceramics are fractionally cheaper than for steels. Discs are a few grand per axle though.
That didn't stop me buying a car with PCCBs. The performance is amazing, and the suspension was reputedly set up for the unsprung weight with ceramics rather than steel boat anchors. It's all marginal though, and as has been said, you need to be a little more careful with ceramics on track, although not as much as the earlier 996 versions.
My main advice would be to buy the spec you like most, in the best condition. Things like buying the right colour, interior spec (level of comfort, leather, etc) will make much more difference to how you feel about the car day to day.
Pete
That didn't stop me buying a car with PCCBs. The performance is amazing, and the suspension was reputedly set up for the unsprung weight with ceramics rather than steel boat anchors. It's all marginal though, and as has been said, you need to be a little more careful with ceramics on track, although not as much as the earlier 996 versions.
My main advice would be to buy the spec you like most, in the best condition. Things like buying the right colour, interior spec (level of comfort, leather, etc) will make much more difference to how you feel about the car day to day.
Pete
..from my exp, with my Gen1 car on PCCB's, for road work, stopping in the wet, and from cold, you will be safer with the normal steels, they bite harder and stop you quicker in most circumstances.. if you get on a track and get them spanking hot the ceramics are better, but you can offset this by putting RS 29's in the red calipers anyway.., the downside to reds is you will be cleaning your wheels a lot more, the yellows are great for keeping your wheels clean, but they are designed to stop you really not so much look pretty, but oooh on the 380mm discs they do look nice tho' ..!
Oh.. and replacement OE PCCB's are about £10K a set too.., its very unlikely you will wear them out tho', but if you do, there are some after market ones for far less money now..
The track boys usually take the PCCB's off and box them up for later on, fitting Alcons or PF discs, PF / RS29 pads.. you can tear the PCCBS's up on the track with repeated beatings, moreover if you go off into the gravel and get a stone stuck in the caliper it will shatter or destroy the PCCB discs as they are a brittle material, so for track work when your pushing on, a lot of folk swap to steels as a preventative measure..
Oh.. and replacement OE PCCB's are about £10K a set too.., its very unlikely you will wear them out tho', but if you do, there are some after market ones for far less money now..
The track boys usually take the PCCB's off and box them up for later on, fitting Alcons or PF discs, PF / RS29 pads.. you can tear the PCCBS's up on the track with repeated beatings, moreover if you go off into the gravel and get a stone stuck in the caliper it will shatter or destroy the PCCB discs as they are a brittle material, so for track work when your pushing on, a lot of folk swap to steels as a preventative measure..
Edited by RatBoy M3CSL on Tuesday 25th October 23:23
Edited by RatBoy M3CSL on Thursday 27th October 15:20
mollytherocker said:
Serious question..
How many drivers need ceramics? Has anybody actually found the steels fading or wanting in terms of braking performance?
My understanding is that a lot of track day guys prefer steels?
So whats the point of ceramics?
MTR
A fairly drastic reduction in unsprung weight and discs that (if treated sensibly) will last 180,000 miles.How many drivers need ceramics? Has anybody actually found the steels fading or wanting in terms of braking performance?
My understanding is that a lot of track day guys prefer steels?
So whats the point of ceramics?
MTR
mollytherocker said:
Serious question..
How many drivers need ceramics? Has anybody actually found the steels fading or wanting in terms of braking performance?
My understanding is that a lot of track day guys prefer steels?
So whats the point of ceramics?
MTR
How many drivers need a GT3? It's not about needs at this level, it's all about what you want.How many drivers need ceramics? Has anybody actually found the steels fading or wanting in terms of braking performance?
My understanding is that a lot of track day guys prefer steels?
So whats the point of ceramics?
MTR
Yes track day guys prefer steels due to the costs of replacing ceramics discs.
Point: Lighter then steels, they should last longer for road driving and for the track driver that has loads of £££ to replace ceramics
lolKoing
I've long been a fan of PCCBs, and knew about the benefits of ceramics from aviation and racing.
They are used in top level motorsport and the advantages are unquestionable. But, they are a costly consumable, so for some racers or regular track day users, then steels may make more sense.
Ironically, it's in day to day road use that the PCCBs probably offer the greatest range of benefits:
- Consistent, fade free performance (hot or cold)
- Reduced stopping distances
- Significant unsprung weight savings (4-5 kg per corner) improving ride, handling
- No brake dust
- No disc corrosion
- Long Life (pads normal, discs 100,000 mls +, apparently)
There were some issues with the early Gen 1 ceramics, but since then Gen 3 ceramics came in over 6 years ago, I'm not aware of any problems in normal use. And most people who have had them wouldn't want anything else.
All the major supercar manufacturers fit them these days and usually at a considerably higher cost than Porsche. I had them on my 997 GT3 and they definitely added value on re-sale.
They are used in top level motorsport and the advantages are unquestionable. But, they are a costly consumable, so for some racers or regular track day users, then steels may make more sense.
Ironically, it's in day to day road use that the PCCBs probably offer the greatest range of benefits:
- Consistent, fade free performance (hot or cold)
- Reduced stopping distances
- Significant unsprung weight savings (4-5 kg per corner) improving ride, handling
- No brake dust
- No disc corrosion
- Long Life (pads normal, discs 100,000 mls +, apparently)
There were some issues with the early Gen 1 ceramics, but since then Gen 3 ceramics came in over 6 years ago, I'm not aware of any problems in normal use. And most people who have had them wouldn't want anything else.
All the major supercar manufacturers fit them these days and usually at a considerably higher cost than Porsche. I had them on my 997 GT3 and they definitely added value on re-sale.
Slippydiff said:
A fairly drastic reduction in unsprung weight and discs that (if treated sensibly) will last 180,000 miles.
Fair enough on the unsprung weight, thats certainly worth having. How much?They may last 180k if 'treated sensibly' but then if you have to do that, that negates the point of them?
MTR
mollytherocker said:
Fair enough on the unsprung weight, thats certainly worth having. How much?
They may last 180k if 'treated sensibly' but then if you have to do that, that negates the point of them?
MTR
Even fast road work was killing the early PCCBs, I think it's unlikely you'll find anyone with the later generations, whose managed to do that. By treated sensibly (I was being diplomatic) I meant NOT using them on track.They may last 180k if 'treated sensibly' but then if you have to do that, that negates the point of them?
MTR
Used on the road, they can last up to 180,000 miles, as the 996 GT3 that Henry and Tom recently sold has proven.
to me, there are much more important options in a gt3 that are must-haves over ceramics.
with that said, besides some of the outright bs some of you are spewing here (porsche engineered them with ceramics in mind but not steels??? lol), understand that sometimes rocks get in between the rotor and pad to which with steels you can simply get them replaced or just keep running them... ceramics... sorry. goners.
i'd list condition, mileage, options and within options the ceramics are way down the list. desirable like whipped cream - not cream pie.
with that said, besides some of the outright bs some of you are spewing here (porsche engineered them with ceramics in mind but not steels??? lol), understand that sometimes rocks get in between the rotor and pad to which with steels you can simply get them replaced or just keep running them... ceramics... sorry. goners.
i'd list condition, mileage, options and within options the ceramics are way down the list. desirable like whipped cream - not cream pie.
mollytherocker said:
Fair enough on the unsprung weight, thats certainly worth having. How much?
They may last 180k if 'treated sensibly' but then if you have to do that, that negates the point of them?
MTR
They are a usefull addition to top level motorsport in series where chasis, engines and aero are already fully developed. Here the unsprung weight advantages are an advantage and budgets are so high that thier cost can be realistically absorbed. In addition they do give an advantage in retardation as the grip levels generated in the chasis and tyres give the brakes the platform to work efficiently.They may last 180k if 'treated sensibly' but then if you have to do that, that negates the point of them?
MTR
None of these factors are relevant on a road car in my opinion. The 997 cup that I raced was capable of speeds far in excess of its road based cousins but ran on steel brakes. The 997 supercup was fitted with ceramics but this was primarily a PR excersise more than anything else to give them a racing pedigree. The reality was that there put a very large budgetary drain on the Supercup teams and were not the reason that lap times were quicker in that series compared to Carera cup. This was mainly due to the F1 rubber laid down and not the brakes.
Bearing all of this in mind and considering that the limiting factor in braking on road 911s is tyre grip and not it's braking capacity I think that the argument for ceramics is weak. I honestly believe that the money would be much better spent improving performance in other areas.
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