Intermediate shaft failure prevention
Discussion
Read an interesting article in Excellence about using a magnetic chip detector to give early warning of imminent intermediate shaft bearing failure which usually leads to catastrophic engine failure. The product web site is http://www.flat6innovations.com/ims-guardian-home/... No connection etc etc just thought it might be of interest to some 986/996 owners.
Just had a read of that. Assume this is the same problem that you also get in the gen 1 Cayman (3.4L)?
I don't think I understand the problem enough to know if this is worthwhile or not. Plus even more worryingly if it introduces any other problems.
In Engineering the saying is solve one problem and you introduce two. So its important to tread carefully.
Have seen a few other companies with their own solutions but the same logic applies equally. Hopefully somebody can explain it and also provide a track record of how the solutions work in the field so to speak.
I don't want my engine to die!!
(fait accompli or self fulfilling...)
I don't think I understand the problem enough to know if this is worthwhile or not. Plus even more worryingly if it introduces any other problems.
In Engineering the saying is solve one problem and you introduce two. So its important to tread carefully.
Have seen a few other companies with their own solutions but the same logic applies equally. Hopefully somebody can explain it and also provide a track record of how the solutions work in the field so to speak.
I don't want my engine to die!!
(fait accompli or self fulfilling...)
CrazyTurboBeast said:
Just had a read of that. Assume this is the same problem that you also get in the gen 1 Cayman (3.4L)?
No, as I understand it, the M97 engines (as in the Cayman and 997) used an improved design of IMS so, although there is still the small possibility of issues, it should be far less likely.CrazyTurboBeast said:
I don't think I understand the problem enough to know if this is worthwhile or not. Plus even more worryingly if it introduces any other problems.
In Engineering the saying is solve one problem and you introduce two. So its important to tread carefully.
It's a very simple system that replaces the standard drain plug with one containing a magnetic chip detector. Short of the new plug falling out the worst than can happen is a false positive where the indicator light comes on but nothing's wrong. It's not actually solving the problem - just warning of when the risk is about to become an issue.In Engineering the saying is solve one problem and you introduce two. So its important to tread carefully.
Gary11 said:
Phelix,I presume this is an aviation technology similar to the chip detectors in helicopter gearboxes,I think IMO that its a bit "shutting the door after the horse....ectect" as at the point there is metal disposition the damge will already be done just an observation and opinion?
It is indeed based upon the chip detector used in helicopter gearboxes - useful things that warn a pilot that gearbox failure is probably imminent and that he ought to land while the main rotor is still capable of turning. I would offer that it's a warning that the horse is likely to bolt quite soon (or that your engine may soon fail) rather than closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.phelix said:
It is indeed based upon the chip detector used in helicopter gearboxes - useful things that warn a pilot that gearbox failure is probably imminent and that he ought to land while the main rotor is still capable of turning. I would offer that it's a warning that the horse is likely to bolt quite soon (or that your engine may soon fail) rather than closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Hi Phelix I do see your point perhaps the damage would be major instead of terminal then,any indication of metal disposition in the oil wont go away so as I said the damage is already done and would IMO still warrant the same stripdown...great idea though.IIRC the first year production of 987 models (MY2005) had the M96 engine.
The idea with this device is to give you a warning when the bearing cage starts to break up, before major damage is done. It then turns a full engine rebuild/replacement into an intermediate shaft bearing replacement only.
The idea with this device is to give you a warning when the bearing cage starts to break up, before major damage is done. It then turns a full engine rebuild/replacement into an intermediate shaft bearing replacement only.
Easily visible. Take a look at the first pic here: http://www.lnengineering.com and go to Products>Boxster Cayman>IMS Upgrades
Edited by Richard Hamilton on Friday 28th October 23:26
Richard Hamilton said:
IIRC the first year production of 987 models (MY2005) had the M96 engine.
The idea with this device is to give you a warning when the bearing cage starts to break up, before major damage is done. It then turns a full engine rebuild/replacement into an intermediate shaft bearing replacement only.
Good logic if the IMS was the only mode of potential failure causing metal particles to be present in the lubricant just prior to failure,an engine run for any period with metal disposition present in oil would be requiring a full stripdown to check for any potential damage to internals and bearing surfaces,that is just basic mechanics and cannot be ignored.The idea with this device is to give you a warning when the bearing cage starts to break up, before major damage is done. It then turns a full engine rebuild/replacement into an intermediate shaft bearing replacement only.
Gary11, not sure what you're trying to say. Unless something's seriously wrong the chip detector won't trip the warning light. When it does the smart move is to stop driving and check the material deposited on the detector. Any significant deposit means something's quite likely to go bang very soon - surely an early warning while the engine's intact is better than an engine's that had a catastrophic failure. You're right in that it will require a strip-down to find the root cause - but at least the engine will have a salvage value as opposed to being fit for scrap.
phelix said:
Gary11, not sure what you're trying to say. Unless something's seriously wrong the chip detector won't trip the warning light. When it does the smart move is to stop driving and check the material deposited on the detector. Any significant deposit means something's quite likely to go bang very soon - surely an early warning while the engine's intact is better than an engine's that had a catastrophic failure. You're right in that it will require a strip-down to find the root cause - but at least the engine will have a salvage value as opposed to being fit for scrap.
Hi Phelix Iwas only making the point (badly)that the IMS isnt the only source of metal to be picked up by any chip detector.IMO There isnt usually much difference in rebuild costs once an engine is stripped unless its trashed particularly on older higher mileage units,with many other things done "while its out".Hence Porsche change engines for scored bores (sometimes!) as there may be much other damage internally due to metal ingress.6C4GTS said:
Following on from the "I sold a lemon" thread does this give you just enough time to trade the car to a dealer on PX before it lets go?
I would bet that this is what most people would do, even if it wasnt their original intention.From that point of view, good for owners, bad for buyers!!
MTR
mollytherocker said:
6C4GTS said:
Following on from the "I sold a lemon" thread does this give you just enough time to trade the car to a dealer on PX before it lets go?
I would bet that this is what most people would do, even if it wasnt their original intention.From that point of view, good for owners, bad for buyers!!
MTR
Gary11 said:
Trev450 said:
This is most certainly my intended strategy given any 'early' signs. I however, sincerly hope that I don't have to put this plan into action as I love my Cayman S and don't have any immediate plans to replace it.
Nice....I would sue.
MTR
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