EVO's Porsche 911 (991) Video Review

[sagarich]

A full video review by Chris Harris is now up on EVO's site: http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/supercarvideos/275557/...

Thoughts?

Edit: A youtube link for all you iOS users - http://www.youtube.com/user/EVOTV#p/a/u/0/poMybaHj...

Edited by sagarich on Tuesday 22 November 19:50

[HammyHamster]

This is the review I think we've been waiting for - good find! He says the 991 is a step forward from the 997 GT3 RS, high praise indeed.

[mollytherocker]

Watching again, he says that its the first 'all new' 911 since 2004.

Er no, 1998 Chris!

1st 1963 - 1997
2nd 1998 - 2011
3rd 2012 on

MTR

[GT Glee]

I thought the traditional 911 trait was for oversteer

[mollytherocker]

GT Glee said:

I thought the traditional 911 trait was for oversteer

No, 911's naturally understeer when pushed, if being driven correctly.

The oversteer comes when drivers do not balance the cars properly in corners, although about 80% of this 'characteristic' was eradicated with the Wiessach axle on the 993.

MTR

[nickfrog]

GT Glee said:

I thought the traditional 911 trait was for oversteer

Definitely understeer from a lateral grip point of view. Oversteer is only available with a loss of traction, which skilled drivers will use to get that lazy front end to bite again.

[mollytherocker]

nickfrog said:

GT Glee said:

I thought the traditional 911 trait was for oversteer

Definitely understeer from a lateral grip point of view. Oversteer is only available with a loss of traction, which skilled drivers will use to get that lazy front end to bite again.

You have managed to pretty much sum up the 911's appeal in that sentence!!

MTR

[betternotbigger]

The absence of traditional 911-style understeer may not be a good thing entirely. I had my geo done by Chris at CG last April and the turn in was utterly transformed. So much front end bite. But, you know what? It became a little boring without the challenge of transferring weight onto the front wheels. A bit like snowboarding on blue runs all day long (or driving a Cayman). Nice carving turns for show but not much adrenaline.

[nickfrog]

mollytherocker said:

nickfrog said:

GT Glee said:

I thought the traditional 911 trait was for oversteer

Definitely understeer from a lateral grip point of view. Oversteer is only available with a loss of traction, which skilled drivers will use to get that lazy front end to bite again.

You have managed to pretty much sum up the 911's appeal in that sentence!!

MTR

Only problem is that I don't include myself in the "skilled enough drivers" category who can extract the most out of the 911 on the road, which is also the perfect excuse for me to run a humble Boxster instead...

[nickfrog]

betternotbigger said:

The absence of traditional 911-style understeer may not be a good thing entirely. I had my geo done by Chris at CG last April and the turn in was utterly transformed. So much front end bite. But, you know what? It became a little boring without the challenge of transferring weight onto the front wheels. A bit like snowboarding on blue runs all day long (or driving a Cayman). Nice carving turns for show but not much adrenaline.

Yes but clean pants.

[betternotbigger]

nickfrog said:

Yes but clean pants.

Seriously though, trail braking to load the front wheels is a safety device. It reduces corner entry speed and hence the likelihood of mid corner lift-off.

[GT Glee]

My/the GT3 steers on the nose and can be steered on the throttle too. I feel it is on the brink of oversteer, which makes it highly directional.

In the Carrera I've experienced oversteer but was due to loss of traction

A rearward weight bias gives the natural tendancy to oversteer, but Porsche deliberately dial this out (through chassis geometry) in 'non-focused' models..

(Edited to say I put the last statement out to invite opinion)

Edited by GT Glee on Wednesday 23 November 10:32

[mollytherocker]

betternotbigger said:

nickfrog said:

Yes but clean pants.

Seriously though, trail braking to load the front wheels is a safety device. It reduces corner entry speed and hence the likelihood of mid corner lift-off.

I can also be highly dangerous if you dont know what you are doing! It certainly works and I learned to do it in an Evora at Silverstone, but most have told me not to use it on the road.

MTR

[Dr S]

Trail braking per se is not problematic on the road. It's always a matter of matching entry speed with the type of turn you are taking. On a track you konw well there will hardly be any nasty surprises (but for a car crashing in front of you or similar).

On the road though, if you overestimate the amount of speed you can carry into a corner when trail braking leaves much less margin for error if, e.g. the radius surprisingly tightens. Then you could easily run out of road and then out of skill...

[Diesel130]

mollytherocker said:

I can also be highly dangerous if you dont know what you are doing! ...
MTR

Can you? I'll keep away from you then

[anonymous-user]

Dr S said:

Trail braking per se is not problematic on the road. It's always a matter of matching entry speed with the type of turn you are taking. On a track you konw well there will hardly be any nasty surprises (but for a car crashing in front of you or similar).

On the road though, if you overestimate the amount of speed you can carry into a corner when trail braking leaves much less margin for error if, e.g. the radius surprisingly tightens. Then you could easily run out of road and then out of skill...

If you drive on or close to the limit on the road, you're not going to live very long. Track and road driving are chalk and cheese. Slow in, fast out on road works well, especially in a 911 with its immense traction. On track you need to be fast in too! From studying years of track data, drivers are usually differentiated by their braking points and turn-in speed rather than mid-exit. Obviously if you go in way too fast you lose it all, sometimes literally.

[anonymous-user]

mollytherocker said:

GT Glee said:

I thought the traditional 911 trait was for oversteer

No, 911's naturally understeer when pushed, if being driven correctly.

The oversteer comes when drivers do not balance the cars properly in corners, although about 80% of this 'characteristic' was eradicated with the Wiessach axle on the 993.

MTR

I think the traditional oversteer trait only really applies to the very early short wheel base models of the 1960s. Every 911 I've driven from 1973 onward has tended to understeer on the limit unless provoked.

[mollytherocker]

Diesel130 said:

mollytherocker said:

I can also be highly dangerous if you dont know what you are doing! ...
MTR

Can you? I'll keep away from you then

I am certainly no 'hand' but I pride myself on my driving and try to learn and improve.

Trail braking is only really useful on or near the limit (Puts weight on the front of the car to increase grip towards the apex).

I rarely use it on the Queens highway.

MTR

[nickfrog]

I wouldn't turn in on the brakes on a public road, particularly not with a 911. I suggest that people claiming they do are actually nowhere near the limit of lat grip so it's useless anyway. They drive at 7/10th simply because they have never driven their car at 10/10th and/or don't realise that the car is better than them. I hope I am wrong though!

[betternotbigger]

nickfrog said:

I wouldn't turn in on the brakes on a public road, particularly not with a 911. I suggest that people claiming they do are actually nowhere near the limit of lat grip so it's useless anyway.

You're missing the point, Nick. At any speed, be it 1/10th or 10/10ths, weight transfer from rear to front is an important method of achieving front end grip and hence clean turn-in. It's got nothing to do with trying to lose the back end, that will only occur after the car is already rotating and if you do something to provoke it. It's about dialing out the understeer (the tendency for the weight of the car to carry on in a straight line when you want it to corner) in a controlled fashion.

Braking firmly just before corner entry and turning in as you feather off the brake, immediately switching to a smooth and progressive throttle input gives you sharp turn in and excellent grip out for the characteristic "pushed round by a giant claw from behind" sensation. Works at any speed although the effects are more dramatic at high speed.