Cayman R and semi slicks
Discussion
I've been doing a fair bit of reading on the Cayman R versus GT3 debate (I have a 997 Clubsport) and from what I can see, the Cayman would be pretty close to the GT3 if it was using Cup tyres (or similar)
Is there any reason why you couldn't use Cups on a Cayman? It will pull more Gs but I guess the oil sump design would cope with this.
Is there any reason why you couldn't use Cups on a Cayman? It will pull more Gs but I guess the oil sump design would cope with this.
Hi there
Can't see why not, people fit CUP's to Carrera's and they don't seem to have issue with the extra G's from it, plus the engine been in the boot will also result in more G's too and as they are same engines, should be no issue.
A Cayman R on CUP's with an aggressive GEO would certainly match a GT3 cornering wise I believe, it would only be once past 80mph a GT3 would see a Cayman off with relative ease, as the 100BHP does make a difference. Plus 911's stop very very well due to the layout which could be another minor advantage.
A Cayman R or any Cayman are very good precision cars that handle superb and are relatively easy to get in and drive fast, but I still preferre the 911 drive, its more of a challenge and as such more rewarding.
Think of it like this, a Cayman is a trained race horse. Whereas the 911 is more of a wild horse which needs taming.
P.S. As with any car on a track day to avoid oil starvations (particular important in wet sump cars), ensure your oil level is on MAXIMUM and re-check it every session.
Can't see why not, people fit CUP's to Carrera's and they don't seem to have issue with the extra G's from it, plus the engine been in the boot will also result in more G's too and as they are same engines, should be no issue.
A Cayman R on CUP's with an aggressive GEO would certainly match a GT3 cornering wise I believe, it would only be once past 80mph a GT3 would see a Cayman off with relative ease, as the 100BHP does make a difference. Plus 911's stop very very well due to the layout which could be another minor advantage.
A Cayman R or any Cayman are very good precision cars that handle superb and are relatively easy to get in and drive fast, but I still preferre the 911 drive, its more of a challenge and as such more rewarding.
Think of it like this, a Cayman is a trained race horse. Whereas the 911 is more of a wild horse which needs taming.
P.S. As with any car on a track day to avoid oil starvations (particular important in wet sump cars), ensure your oil level is on MAXIMUM and re-check it every session.
Edited by Gibbo205 on Monday 12th December 13:17
There seems to be some debate here
http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxster-tech/9137-d...
on the cayman integrated dry sump. There's reference to track-dayers on "r-rated" tyres.
Bert
http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxster-tech/9137-d...
on the cayman integrated dry sump. There's reference to track-dayers on "r-rated" tyres.
Bert
At least the Gen 2 engine is less likely to be have oil starvation issues. Although it only has 4 scavenger pumps compared to the 6(?) on the GT3.
If running slicks is a regular thing then maybe an oil sump extension kit (the X-51 or after market like Mantis Sport 1.5L extension) would be a good investment. I'd echo the oil check as well after each session. In fact make sure its full before each track day.
If running slicks is a regular thing then maybe an oil sump extension kit (the X-51 or after market like Mantis Sport 1.5L extension) would be a good investment. I'd echo the oil check as well after each session. In fact make sure its full before each track day.
redback911 said:
At least the Gen 2 engine is less likely to be have oil starvation issues. Although it only has 4 scavenger pumps compared to the 6(?) on the GT3.
If running slicks is a regular thing then maybe an oil sump extension kit (the X-51 or after market like Mantis Sport 1.5L extension) would be a good investment. I'd echo the oil check as well after each session. In fact make sure its full before each track day.
Oil check is crucial. when I take my 911 on a track day, I arrive in the garage, park up, wait 10 minutes and let the car take a reading, I then top up the car to the max fill point on the electronic guage, leaving one block empty. I then add 250ml which then lights up all the blocks.If running slicks is a regular thing then maybe an oil sump extension kit (the X-51 or after market like Mantis Sport 1.5L extension) would be a good investment. I'd echo the oil check as well after each session. In fact make sure its full before each track day.
Since I've done track days in my 911 my oil consumption is now more or less zero. When I got the car with 27k on the clock it had clean bores and zero oil leaks, but the car was using a little bit of oil, no doubt previous owner doing short journeys or never driving the car as intended that much.
Since my ownership I've doubled the ignitions in Range 1 and 2, no doubt due to the odd trackday, but my oil consumption is now zero, but saying that I do change the oil on mine after every trackday or 6000 miles, whichever comes first.
My point is keep the oil on max and no harm will come to the car. Drive it how Porsche designed it to be driven (hard within the limiter) and your piston rings will be clean with no deposits resulting in a good seal and no or very little oil use.
Porsche designed the 911 and Cayman as sport cars, they should all be enjoyed on track.
Edited by Gibbo205 on Monday 12th December 13:53
Gibbo205 said:
Oil check is crucial. when I take my 911 on a track day, I arrive in the garage, park up, wait 10 minutes and let the car take a reading, I then top up the car to the max fill point on the electronic guage, leaving one block empty. I then add 250ml which then lights up all the blocks.
Since I've done track days in my 911 my oil consumption is now more or less zero. When I got the car with 27k on the clock it had clean bores and zero oil leaks, but the car was using a little bit of oil, no doubt previous owner doing short journeys or never driving the car as intended that much.
not nit picking but more curious, if you car doesn't use oil why do you have to fill it?Since I've done track days in my 911 my oil consumption is now more or less zero. When I got the car with 27k on the clock it had clean bores and zero oil leaks, but the car was using a little bit of oil, no doubt previous owner doing short journeys or never driving the car as intended that much.
do you run it shortlow between track days?
sleep envy said:
not nit picking but more curious, if you car doesn't use oil why do you have to fill it?
do you run it shortlow between track days?
Nope I always top it up to maximum on the guage and up until the last track day it used a little oil.do you run it shortlow between track days?
For the road I've always kept the guage on maximum and never let it drop below this, checking the oil level takes no time and cost very little with small top ups, an engine replacement/damage is a huge inconvience so I keep my oil on the maximum mark always and I found it would typically use 250ml or so every 1000 miles, though when I first got it the car was using approx 400ml-500ml per 1000 miles, so things have improved, but the odd trackday seems to have really improved things.
On track days I'd always top it up so even the bar above maximum was lit up to prevent any oil starvation risk. Normally during a track day the car would use around 250-400ml of oil.
But on last track day I did my usual of adding oil to fill all the bars which took a mere 250ml and the following day at home all the bars were still lit, so at most it had used 200ml if even that on track, possibly nothing. I dropped the oil to find it clean, no fragments and inspected filter, completely debris free.
Added 8.5l of fresh and in the last 3000 miles or so I've done not required a single top up at all, so it would seem my cars oil consumption has dropped which is a good thing and backs up what people say about driving cars hard as they were designed to be driven once warmed up as it means no deposits around the piston rings etc. which means no smoking, little/no oil usage and maximum output from the engine.
Hope that all makes sense.
Running cups would warrant an investment in deeper oil pan or modified baffles, extra scavenge pump and also Motorsport air-oil separator. Check the boxster race series for what they do. I'd be inclined to also do that on a carrera engine if running cups. Some US guys are running a secondary oil safety system.
Gibbo205 said:
On track days I'd always top it up so even the bar above maximum was lit up to prevent any oil starvation risk. Normally during a track day the car would use around 250-400ml of oil.
Are you sure about this? It's conflicting with what is recommended by others including race series teams. Over fill is almost as bad as under fill, some say worse due to weaker air-oil separator causing oil to be sucked into piston and potentially hydro locking the engine. I'm happy to stand corrected on this but it's going against everything I've read.s_mcneil said:
Are you sure about this? It's conflicting with what is recommended by others including race series teams. Over fill is almost as bad as under fill, some say worse due to weaker air-oil separator causing oil to be sucked into piston and potentially hydro locking the engine. I'm happy to stand corrected on this but it's going against everything I've read.
Seems to be conflicting views then, I was adviced by a Porsche tech and he also has and still does get involved in Porsche CUP series too. The advice was given that on a normal sump car keeping the oil on maximum is a must requirement and filling it so all the bars light up is best adviced and won't cause any harm as its within Porsche specs, basically 8.7l of oil instead of 8.5l in there. To cause damage you need to over-fill typically by 0.5-1l and this would cause damage especially with the engine under load. 8.5l puts the engine on maximum with all the bars lit except one, adding a further 200ml-250ml lights them all up and I was adviced to do this simply as it will hugely help prevent oil starvation and secondly a car is expected to burn oil on a track day and its all within Porsche specs. A wet sump engine can easily suffer from oil starvation when cornering hence the recommendation for keeping the oil on maximum and for good measure adding 200-250ml over maximum so all the bars are lit up won't cause any damage but be a good safeguard.
Also Porsche state that upto 250ml over maximum is within tolerance and won't cause any harm, but can in my view certainly prevent oil starvation under hard cornering, if I was trying to get over 9l in there then yep big problems, but ensuring the car is on max or very slightly above won't cause any harm, or so I've been told and the car runs sweet as nut and has never smoked. An over-filled car would smoke from the exhaust too.
I know off a guy who did a few track days and he checked his oil and it was on the mid-way point, think one bar above minimum if I remember and due to not knowing any different he carried on doing laps and his engine siezed due to cornering forces and later investigation resulting in main bearing seizure due to oil starvation and it was because the oil level was about 0.6l-0.8l too low below the maximum level, so still plenty in there but enough to prevent starvation.
Edited by Gibbo205 on Monday 12th December 15:43
A slight over fill should be ok. A large over fill on any engine is bad news and can cause engine damage. I would not know for sure but 250ml is not a lot and I would have thought ok. When I ran a wet sump on a Race Westfield I would over fill it by about 500ml as it could pull about 1.5g under braking and cornering. This never gave me any problems with being too full.
A quick question for you guys, the gauge on the Cayman is giving you coolant temp!!??
How do you know when you have good enough oil temperature to be able to give it some revs?
My friends old M3 (E46?) has a coolant gauge and an oil temp gauge, if oil temp is so important (no arguments there) why does Porsche not have a oil temp gauge as well?
Sorry to go a little off topic here..
How do you know when you have good enough oil temperature to be able to give it some revs?
My friends old M3 (E46?) has a coolant gauge and an oil temp gauge, if oil temp is so important (no arguments there) why does Porsche not have a oil temp gauge as well?
Sorry to go a little off topic here..
GBR1 said:
A quick question for you guys, the gauge on the Cayman is giving you coolant temp!!??
How do you know when you have good enough oil temperature to be able to give it some revs?
My friends old M3 (E46?) has a coolant gauge and an oil temp gauge, if oil temp is so important (no arguments there) why does Porsche not have a oil temp gauge as well?
Sorry to go a little off topic here..
The Cayman R unfortunately to my knowledge does not have either an oil temperature or oil pressure guage. How do you know when you have good enough oil temperature to be able to give it some revs?
My friends old M3 (E46?) has a coolant gauge and an oil temp gauge, if oil temp is so important (no arguments there) why does Porsche not have a oil temp gauge as well?
Sorry to go a little off topic here..
Which seems to put it bluntly stupid! Unless I'm mistaken.
i find the oil top up advice at best confusing, it is not only the amount of oil but that caymans/boxster and 911s sans gtx series are designed to be run using regular tires therefore not meant to cope with the high Gs associated with running track based slicks or cup tires. Doing high lateral Gs with track tires risk engine damage and will not be covered under porsche warranty. Doing the same exercise with standard tires are ok because you won't get the same G force (well, at least within porsche tolerances all else being constant). my 2 cents...
Most but not all of the M96 engines in the BRSCC Porsche Championships have baffled sumps. This season all cars bar one were 986s, the only 987 was also a 3.2 as that's in the regs. At least in the UK, the Gen.2 is unproven in racing - I know there is a Cayman series in the US but they could still be all Gen.1.
Certainly no problem at all running Toyos or Yokohamas track day tyres, but I would suggest 18" wheels instead of 19" - improved availability and reduced cost, let alone better ride.
All other factors being equal, whether a Cayman can keep up with a GT3 would rather depend on the circuit. With lots of twisties, it would do well but anywhere with long straights and the extra BHP means it will just out-accelerate you.
Saturday before last saw Backdraft Motorsport's track-prepared Spyder on the Silverstone GP circuit with a swarm of GT3s. In the experienced hands of their MD Mark, it could keep up with many of them. If you're serious about tracking a Cayman R you might want to give BDM a call http://www.backdraftmotorsport.com/
Certainly no problem at all running Toyos or Yokohamas track day tyres, but I would suggest 18" wheels instead of 19" - improved availability and reduced cost, let alone better ride.
All other factors being equal, whether a Cayman can keep up with a GT3 would rather depend on the circuit. With lots of twisties, it would do well but anywhere with long straights and the extra BHP means it will just out-accelerate you.
Saturday before last saw Backdraft Motorsport's track-prepared Spyder on the Silverstone GP circuit with a swarm of GT3s. In the experienced hands of their MD Mark, it could keep up with many of them. If you're serious about tracking a Cayman R you might want to give BDM a call http://www.backdraftmotorsport.com/
The GT3 is a road derivitive of a race car so it already has the driver train and chasis hardware to cope with the extra loadings of track orientated tyres. I think that eventually, Porsche will produce a similar evolution of the Cayman but in the mean time, as has already been posted, the car will need substantially modifying to regularly perform under these loadings. A quick driver in a Cayman R on slicks could cause a lot of long term damage to the car. To be honest, by the time you've spent time and money engineering a Caymen to run slicks, it could cost you more than simply buying a GT3. No disrespects to the Caymen R. I think that it is a very good car but it simply is not engineered as a race car.
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