Who really uses PASM in sport mode in his GT3/RS?
Discussion
There has been some debate on PASM in 7 GT3 variants. Some argue that a passive set-up would be superior - at least for track work.
Using my 3 as a daily drive, even on smooth roads the PASM sport setting never makes sense. I wonder now, how many people actually use PASM sport mode on a regular basis. If it was only a small group then Porsche could well ditch PASM in the 991 GT3 (if there ever is one) - wishful thinking, I know...
To me it's a useless switch that makes the car more complex but does not add any performance or enjoyment advantage. I'd rather have these production cost invested into a proper passive set-up
Views?
Using my 3 as a daily drive, even on smooth roads the PASM sport setting never makes sense. I wonder now, how many people actually use PASM sport mode on a regular basis. If it was only a small group then Porsche could well ditch PASM in the 991 GT3 (if there ever is one) - wishful thinking, I know...
To me it's a useless switch that makes the car more complex but does not add any performance or enjoyment advantage. I'd rather have these production cost invested into a proper passive set-up
Views?
There are certainly those who would agree that a passive setup has its advantages, but your analysis ignores the fact that PASM is always "on". Normal mode offers a contiuously variable setup dependant on real-time changes in road conditions and driving style. So bumpy conditions are ironed out by PASM in Normal mode in a way that a passive setup could not offer.
As to whether there is any point to Sport suspension mode. That is a question for the seat of your pants and your dentist.
As to whether there is any point to Sport suspension mode. That is a question for the seat of your pants and your dentist.
I use PASM on track days and for me this is a great feature of the 997 GT3. Its comfortable to drive to a circuit and then press the magic button and it tightens everything up for the track. I think this compromise and adjustability between road and track handling is only really achievable with switchable dampers.
I occassionaly use it on the road but only when "pushing on" and when the road happens to be a nice new smooth bit otherwise its too stiff.
I occassionaly use it on the road but only when "pushing on" and when the road happens to be a nice new smooth bit otherwise its too stiff.
You are right about the PASM features in normal mode.
On track work: This depends really on the track. PASM in sport mode does not work well on Nordschleife. You will be faster in normal mode.
Reading Monkey Harris' report on the grey 3 he stuck exe-tc (?) dampers on also pointed into the direction that a good passive set-up can be superior both on road and track.
On track work: This depends really on the track. PASM in sport mode does not work well on Nordschleife. You will be faster in normal mode.
Reading Monkey Harris' report on the grey 3 he stuck exe-tc (?) dampers on also pointed into the direction that a good passive set-up can be superior both on road and track.
Dr S said:
You are right about the PASM features in normal mode.
On track work: This depends really on the track. PASM in sport mode does not work well on Nordschleife. You will be faster in normal mode.
Reading Monkey Harris' report on the grey 3 he stuck exe-tc (?) dampers on also pointed into the direction that a good passive set-up can be superior both on road and track.
No electronic dampers fitted on WRC cars, nuff said.On track work: This depends really on the track. PASM in sport mode does not work well on Nordschleife. You will be faster in normal mode.
Reading Monkey Harris' report on the grey 3 he stuck exe-tc (?) dampers on also pointed into the direction that a good passive set-up can be superior both on road and track.
PASM would have been one of Colin Chapmans "hates" (a bl**dy compromise)
A properly engineered passive damper set up would be far superior (but also a lot more expensive)
Slippydiff said:
Dr S said:
You are right about the PASM features in normal mode.
On track work: This depends really on the track. PASM in sport mode does not work well on Nordschleife. You will be faster in normal mode.
Reading Monkey Harris' report on the grey 3 he stuck exe-tc (?) dampers on also pointed into the direction that a good passive set-up can be superior both on road and track.
No electronic dampers fitted on WRC cars, nuff said.On track work: This depends really on the track. PASM in sport mode does not work well on Nordschleife. You will be faster in normal mode.
Reading Monkey Harris' report on the grey 3 he stuck exe-tc (?) dampers on also pointed into the direction that a good passive set-up can be superior both on road and track.
PASM would have been one of Colin Chapmans "hates" (a bl**dy compromise)
A properly engineered passive damper set up would be far superior (but also a lot more expensive)
I quite like the switchable option in my car. Don't see that it would add a huge amount of weight either tbh but that could be because I'm not fully conversant with how they work but to me it would be some wiring and electromagnetic dampers. Are the dampers a lot heavier than a passive set-up?
By reference my late M3 CSL offered a fer superior ride comfort than any Stuttgart metal I've driven. As to whether that hampers its progress I would look to empirical evidence such as its 'ring lap time of 7:50 compared to 7:40 for. GT3.2 with its additional 75Bhp.
I do use sport mode occasionally but it does require a very smooth road.
I do use sport mode occasionally but it does require a very smooth road.
I collected my gt3 from the factory in Nov 2007. During the handover brief, which lasted 50 mins the Porsche Person said this when pointing to the Sports Suspension Button , " only press this button if you want a deep and long lasting relationship with your back specialist ". Funny , when I asked when to use it, he said not on the Nordschliffe but somewhere like Silverstone.
I too have heard that the PASM reverts back to normal if the conditions are unsuitable, but this was mere internet hearsay, not from a Porsche or Technical Guru. I wonder if it's true or not ? Any evidence ?
I too have heard that the PASM reverts back to normal if the conditions are unsuitable, but this was mere internet hearsay, not from a Porsche or Technical Guru. I wonder if it's true or not ? Any evidence ?
drpep said:
By reference my late M3 CSL offered a fer superior ride comfort than any Stuttgart metal I've driven. As to whether that hampers its progress I would look to empirical evidence such as its 'ring lap time of 7:50 compared to 7:40 for. GT3.2 with its additional 75Bhp.
I do use sport mode occasionally but it does require a very smooth road.
Utter b@ll@cks. Both modes are distinct. There is no automatic switching between them. Both offer continuously variable damping according to conditions and driving style. Just leave it in Normal unless driving on a mirror.I do use sport mode occasionally but it does require a very smooth road.
The way it was described to me (at my Millbrook driving day) was as follows:
Think of the suspension as having say 10 degrees of stiffness.
'Normal' modes uses levels 1 to 7 and Sport mode uses levels 3 to 10. As has been discussed, the computer monitors your driving style and road conditions and varies the stiffness between these extremes.
So if you are really pushing on in normal mode, in theory, it would be possible for the car to be stiffer if you were really 'going for it' on a smooth track, compared to a gentle drive in sports mode on an uneven surface.
No idea how accurate this is or whether the GT3 set up is different from the basic models?
Sidicks
Think of the suspension as having say 10 degrees of stiffness.
'Normal' modes uses levels 1 to 7 and Sport mode uses levels 3 to 10. As has been discussed, the computer monitors your driving style and road conditions and varies the stiffness between these extremes.
So if you are really pushing on in normal mode, in theory, it would be possible for the car to be stiffer if you were really 'going for it' on a smooth track, compared to a gentle drive in sports mode on an uneven surface.
No idea how accurate this is or whether the GT3 set up is different from the basic models?
Sidicks
Edited by sidicks on Friday 27th January 18:36
drpep said:
By reference my late M3 CSL offered a fer superior ride comfort than any Stuttgart metal I've driven.
I'm genuinely shocked to read that. My last car was a non-CSL E46 M3 and much as it made me smile, the daily slog was hard work and I find my 997.2 infinitely more comfortable.FWIW, I literally never use sport mode in my 911, but it's not a GT3/RS - just a humble C4S - and I don't know if there's any difference between in the systems.
Page 57 PASM of the GT3 and RS 997.2 PDF Brochure from Porsche:
"Depending on which mode is set and the road conditions detected the system automatically selects the best damper application within the two setup ranges"
Basically within sport and normal mode setups there are further ranges which are harder and softer according to conditions it detects. So it is intellegent within each setting. Hope that explains more!
"Depending on which mode is set and the road conditions detected the system automatically selects the best damper application within the two setup ranges"
Basically within sport and normal mode setups there are further ranges which are harder and softer according to conditions it detects. So it is intellegent within each setting. Hope that explains more!
Edited by exigepete on Monday 30th January 01:46
Edited by exigepete on Monday 30th January 01:49
All I know is that if I want to push on through a series of bends, I have to select sport or after the first couple of turns, the front end starts to wash out. This may be made worse by the fact that I run PS2s not cups?
Immediately the fun is over, it gets switched back as the ride is awful. I would prefer a "fixed" suspension set up, however, for me the switch position is a big problem. It would be much better on the steering wheel IMHO as fiddling about behind the gear stick at a fair speed is hopeless.
Immediately the fun is over, it gets switched back as the ride is awful. I would prefer a "fixed" suspension set up, however, for me the switch position is a big problem. It would be much better on the steering wheel IMHO as fiddling about behind the gear stick at a fair speed is hopeless.
I tend to find that I use PASM in Sport for very high speed motoring - it adds extra stability over bumps and crests. Last year in my 3.8 at the Nurburgring, if the car was in normal mode it would ground out (front splitter, front brake ducts) 2-3 times per lap, but in Sport mode this happened only once per lap (Ex Muhle). The car also felt far better over the very fast humps at Flugplatz, SX and Plantzgarten.
On the road in the UK where speeds are limited I never use Sport on the road, but on faster (and smoother!) continental roads I have occasionally used Sport on the road as well.
Cheers
On the road in the UK where speeds are limited I never use Sport on the road, but on faster (and smoother!) continental roads I have occasionally used Sport on the road as well.
Cheers
One thing that always strikes me when following the PASM on/off debate - I can appreciate that for some it is nice to know that there is a fall back solution, but: I have been a passenger with some fellow track day drivers who use PASM all the time (some even when racing!) and I have to say that about 85% of them wouldn't last two corners without it (all in terms of track driving!).
The seemed total oblivious as to the car's performance envelope during cornering and braking. It felt outright dangerous, and seemed to have totally halted their development in terms of driving skills.
It is everyones own choice and I don't judge it at all - but I can't personally understand it, as for me the thrill of driving comes from controlling a car that is on the limit and ME doing the work and taking the credit for it. Having said that, I am unsure if said drivers I expierienced are aware of just how much PASM is really saving them.
The seemed total oblivious as to the car's performance envelope during cornering and braking. It felt outright dangerous, and seemed to have totally halted their development in terms of driving skills.
It is everyones own choice and I don't judge it at all - but I can't personally understand it, as for me the thrill of driving comes from controlling a car that is on the limit and ME doing the work and taking the credit for it. Having said that, I am unsure if said drivers I expierienced are aware of just how much PASM is really saving them.
I find the passive setup (-20mm LSD) on my 7C2S (PCCB's & X51 to demonstrate the performance approach taken on spec as this is a GT3 thread) is somewhere between the two settings - erring on the side of the sport mode 'on' from my humble experience... so maybe a 6 to 7 in the 0-10 list? BUT it's a whole different feel somehow. It's much more progressive - as I expect it to be - and less twitchy generally. Certainly the best setup on the Axx back to the parental abode in December.
Either way, it's perfect most of the time and comes alive on the finest of potholed roads here, up in sunny Scotland and fares equally well on the smoother continental stuff. I would say the major difference I notice is more tram-lining with passive (why?!) coupled with an ultimately more balancable turn in (or is that just limited driver skills?) and linear progression.
Comparing to an Impreza STi WRX PP it's, overall, a more comfortable place to ride tho the difference is that, as it has a 'normal' springs/damper arrangement, there are just different parts of the road it enjoys more so not a gaping chasm there. Comparing to an M3 (non CSL) it's a whole different world in my experience, the M3 is much more 'crashy' all round and seems to have the worst bits of the Impreza and Pork rides.
Back on topic. No, get a passive set up. I think that I would enjoy a softer setting only occasionally, even the girl agrees, and it's plenty stiff enough for pressing on. A front sus raiser would ultimately be of more use around town for my (abused - especially when aforementioned girl is driving) front splitter however...
Either way, it's perfect most of the time and comes alive on the finest of potholed roads here, up in sunny Scotland and fares equally well on the smoother continental stuff. I would say the major difference I notice is more tram-lining with passive (why?!) coupled with an ultimately more balancable turn in (or is that just limited driver skills?) and linear progression.
Comparing to an Impreza STi WRX PP it's, overall, a more comfortable place to ride tho the difference is that, as it has a 'normal' springs/damper arrangement, there are just different parts of the road it enjoys more so not a gaping chasm there. Comparing to an M3 (non CSL) it's a whole different world in my experience, the M3 is much more 'crashy' all round and seems to have the worst bits of the Impreza and Pork rides.
Back on topic. No, get a passive set up. I think that I would enjoy a softer setting only occasionally, even the girl agrees, and it's plenty stiff enough for pressing on. A front sus raiser would ultimately be of more use around town for my (abused - especially when aforementioned girl is driving) front splitter however...
noneedtolift said:
One thing that always strikes me when following the PASM on/off debate - I can appreciate that for some it is nice to know that there is a fall back solution, but: I have been a passenger with some fellow track day drivers who use PASM all the time (some even when racing!) and I have to say that about 85% of them wouldn't last two corners without it (all in terms of track driving!).
The seemed total oblivious as to the car's performance envelope during cornering and braking. It felt outright dangerous, and seemed to have totally halted their development in terms of driving skills.
It is everyones own choice and I don't judge it at all - but I can't personally understand it, as for me the thrill of driving comes from controlling a car that is on the limit and ME doing the work and taking the credit for it. Having said that, I am unsure if said drivers I expierienced are aware of just how much PASM is really saving them.
Are you confusing PASM with PSM here?The seemed total oblivious as to the car's performance envelope during cornering and braking. It felt outright dangerous, and seemed to have totally halted their development in terms of driving skills.
It is everyones own choice and I don't judge it at all - but I can't personally understand it, as for me the thrill of driving comes from controlling a car that is on the limit and ME doing the work and taking the credit for it. Having said that, I am unsure if said drivers I expierienced are aware of just how much PASM is really saving them.
The PASM merely alters the damping rates of the suspension and isn't the safety net that PSM gives of brake dabbing/ignition control to correct under/oversteer?
Apologies if I have misunderstood you?
nsm3 said:
Are you confusing PASM with PSM here?
The PASM merely alters the damping rates of the suspension and isn't the safety net that PSM gives of brake dabbing/ignition control to correct under/oversteer?
Apologies if I have misunderstood you?
I think I may be indeed, you are absolutely right! The PASM merely alters the damping rates of the suspension and isn't the safety net that PSM gives of brake dabbing/ignition control to correct under/oversteer?
Apologies if I have misunderstood you?
Many thanks - as I said I can't remember what it says on my damper-button. In any case, I don't use it, even on track as I found the suspension very uncompliant esp. under braking when the track is bumby.
nsm3 said:
All I know is that if I want to push on through a series of bends, I have to select sport or after the first couple of turns, the front end starts to wash out.
This is the reason why PASM is unsuited for the track. You will find the same in sport if you press on harder (ie on track). PASM does not allow the driver to rotate the car on the brakes which is a fundamental characteristic of 911s. Instead it forces the front to stiffen and the car understeers. No geo setting can fix this.Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff