Csl or cayman s for track use only?
Discussion
After a glorious 11months with my superb vx220, it's time chop it in. I'm after something equally as raw and focused, it must have that razor sharp turn in, braking and balance that the vx220 has. I was almost certain the csl was the car and it was just about finding one but then I kept stumbling on the cayman. I'm a Porsche man through and through having only just become Porsche-less for the first time since the age of 21 but I'd never considered a cayman.
My only concern is do I have to spend anything on it to get it track suitable? The csl is pretty much ready and has a fabulous gearbox. My budget is 20ishK and I really don't want to spend thousands on suspension and brakes.
Has anyone had both and used them extensively on track? Or any other ideas, not really after an exige or similar as the VX is identical in terms of driving experience and I'm fed up with feeling like I've been beaten up go to and from the track. Oh I'm also after reliability, I really can't be arsed with constantly fettling.
My only concern is do I have to spend anything on it to get it track suitable? The csl is pretty much ready and has a fabulous gearbox. My budget is 20ishK and I really don't want to spend thousands on suspension and brakes.
Has anyone had both and used them extensively on track? Or any other ideas, not really after an exige or similar as the VX is identical in terms of driving experience and I'm fed up with feeling like I've been beaten up go to and from the track. Oh I'm also after reliability, I really can't be arsed with constantly fettling.
khushy said:
Elise is far superior to a vx - you will be dissappointed by a Cayman in comparison and finding a great CSL will cost you £££ if you are lucky - standard CSL brakesare made of cheese - for the track, get an exige!
In what way is an Elise superior to a VX or different?? Exige is just to similar, I'd like something abit more special to, exige just doesn't really float my boat.If you drive a vx and an elise b2b you will know what I mean - true they are similar, but they are not the same - the experience (to me) is very different indeed and an exige is even better.
Right tools for the right job . . . . . . . . Track use on a budget = exige . . . . . . simples and its simple enough to do a load of mods and DIY too.
Special does mean better - surely you want better and not more-special - I fear a backwards step coming your way.
£20k will not get you a decent CSL either, which is a great road car btw and not a bad track car unless its had a lad of moola spent on it - with your budget I would get an exige or a properly sorted Z3 M coupe with the E46 engine or even an E46 M3 and then sort it myself.
Right tools for the right job . . . . . . . . Track use on a budget = exige . . . . . . simples and its simple enough to do a load of mods and DIY too.
Special does mean better - surely you want better and not more-special - I fear a backwards step coming your way.
£20k will not get you a decent CSL either, which is a great road car btw and not a bad track car unless its had a lad of moola spent on it - with your budget I would get an exige or a properly sorted Z3 M coupe with the E46 engine or even an E46 M3 and then sort it myself.
khushy said:
If you drive a vx and an elise b2b you will know what I mean - true they are similar, but they are not the same - the experience (to me) is very different indeed and an exige is even better.
Right tools for the right job . . . . . . . . Track use on a budget = exige . . . . . . simples and its simple enough to do a load of mods and DIY too.
Special does mean better - surely you want better and not more-special - I fear a backwards step coming your way.
£20k will not get you a decent CSL either, which is a great road car btw and not a bad track car unless its had a lad of moola spent on it - with your budget I would get an exige or a properly sorted Z3 M coupe with the E46 engine or even an E46 M3 and then sort it myself.
I think I know what you mean. The VX is a lot faster though.Right tools for the right job . . . . . . . . Track use on a budget = exige . . . . . . simples and its simple enough to do a load of mods and DIY too.
Special does mean better - surely you want better and not more-special - I fear a backwards step coming your way.
£20k will not get you a decent CSL either, which is a great road car btw and not a bad track car unless its had a lad of moola spent on it - with your budget I would get an exige or a properly sorted Z3 M coupe with the E46 engine or even an E46 M3 and then sort it myself.
The z3m coupe is also an option, I love the shape! S54 is rare though. The csl I've been offered is mint. It will almost certainly need brakes for extensive track use though.
I did toy with the idea of getting an exige before the VX but I really can't see the appeal.
khushy said:
Seriously £20k mint CSL - has not been invented yet - be very careful!
he's a good friend. It's prestine and mine if I want it. I'll get it inspected, specifically the rear subframe but it's mine if I want it. The VX is superb and I'll probably miss it but I'd like something different. You do know the vx tub, brakes(ap), arms and suspension(bilstein) is identical right? The only difference is the VX doesn't have the dodgey toyota engine and has a turbo. I'm no driving God, in fact I'm probably very mediocre, but from the first few hundred yards of driving an Exige I realised how special it was.
I've never felt that in any other car I've owned.
Unfortunately I never got to spank it round a track, but I also had an Elise for a few days - the difference, to me anyway, was chalk and cheese!
If a VX is identical to an Elise then you may be pleasantly surprised by an Exige - just go and have a long play in one if you can.
As for reliability, the Toyota 2zz supercharged engine appears to have it in abundance.
Eta - you posted above as I typed..... It would be a close call if I could get a CSL for £19k....!
I've never felt that in any other car I've owned.
Unfortunately I never got to spank it round a track, but I also had an Elise for a few days - the difference, to me anyway, was chalk and cheese!
If a VX is identical to an Elise then you may be pleasantly surprised by an Exige - just go and have a long play in one if you can.
As for reliability, the Toyota 2zz supercharged engine appears to have it in abundance.
Eta - you posted above as I typed..... It would be a close call if I could get a CSL for £19k....!
Edited by Zyp on Monday 6th February 22:49
ZeroH said:
CSL all the way mate !!
Cayman v capable, but on cups with proper brakes, CSL can hang with GT3's on track.... plus 4 seats, more special motor, incredible noise, faster....
about sums it up !
Hate the seats in the CSL tho - gives you terrible posture.
Hello bud, you well?Cayman v capable, but on cups with proper brakes, CSL can hang with GT3's on track.... plus 4 seats, more special motor, incredible noise, faster....
about sums it up !
Hate the seats in the CSL tho - gives you terrible posture.
I'm really drawn to the csl, it's epic but will almost certainly need brakes as they are rubbish. I've driven an SC exige at the ring, great car but it is in the same camp as the VX, both phenomenal cars. I'll try one again before I decide next week and see.
VonSenger said:
Hello bud, you well?
I'm really drawn to the csl, it's epic but will almost certainly need brakes as they are rubbish. I've driven an SC exige at the ring, great car but it is in the same camp as the VX, both phenomenal cars. I'll try one again before I decide next week and see.
the brakes on a CSL are overstated as a problem.I'm really drawn to the csl, it's epic but will almost certainly need brakes as they are rubbish. I've driven an SC exige at the ring, great car but it is in the same camp as the VX, both phenomenal cars. I'll try one again before I decide next week and see.
With decent pads (e.g. Performance friction PFC01), braided hoses, and good fluid, they wont fade, and they'll stop the car plenty enough.
What the AP and Alcon kits give you, is much better pedal feel.
CSL is an epic car, if you're into your track days you should get one.
However - a number of cars which have done a lot of track miles have had their engines go at around the ~70,000 mile mark... so if you're planning to track it, I would look for one with a warranty as a new engine is ~15K or so.
I would look for a standard (or near standard) one - adding suspension, cage, seats, harnesses, rose jointing, etc to mine made it much faster (7:36 BTG on my driftbox), but not much more fun to drive, and ruin it as an everyday fun car
That siad if you're tracking regularly and its not an everyday car, then the mods do no harm.
I had my CSL for 3.5 years, and ~30,000 miles, and around 500 laps of the 'ring, I loved it.
As for the Cayman S. For ~20K you'll get a Gen1, which comes with the stories of the M96 engine. So that's something to bear in mind. It's a fantastic chassis though, and a perfect drivers car.
I have a Gen2 cayman s, and if anything I prefer it to the CSL - certainly for me now - as whilst I learnt to drive on track in a CSL - the Cayman really encourages you to push yourself to develop more - to be more precise, and that provides great satisfaction.
One thing to bear in mind with both cars, is they way >1350Kg. They're heavy compared to a VX220/Elise.
Your running costs will be high - they run on 18" or 19" wheels, 235 ad the front, 265 at the rear, so a set of good rubber is over a grand, and wont last that long. I reckoned on a set of cups lasting 70 laps or so of the 'ring - which sometimes would be just 1 weekend. Similarly you'll go through brake pads, disks - and depending on the CSL (they all seemed to have different characters, you may have fun with the power steering system or differential, or wishbones, or waterpump or alternator).... so they'll cost a bit to run.
Either car is a great - but just keep thinking with the head when you're buying with the heart
ZeroH said:
CSL all the way mate !!
Hate the seats in the CSL tho - gives you terrible posture.
You can get the inflatable Sparco lumbar support from Demon tweeks:Hate the seats in the CSL tho - gives you terrible posture.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=2&a...
...Or some people fit Recaros.
Either way CSL + APs all round + the right bits = EPIC.
cpufreak said:
the brakes on a CSL are overstated as a problem.
With decent pads (e.g. Performance friction PFC01), braided hoses, and good fluid, they wont fade, and they'll stop the car plenty enough.
What the AP and Alcon kits give you, is much better pedal feel.
I agree, though for me the whole thing was spoiled by the smg gearbox. It was great at first but very quickly became a gimmick & I missed the manual shift.With decent pads (e.g. Performance friction PFC01), braided hoses, and good fluid, they wont fade, and they'll stop the car plenty enough.
What the AP and Alcon kits give you, is much better pedal feel.
Changed for my megane r26.r & never looked back.
To be honest it's the reason I bought a Z4M coupe, same engine, a little quicker & a manual gear shift-what's not to like?
Im used to the paddle shift with my R8 so this shouldnt be a problem.........what am i saying?! Im getting old.
The R26R Now theres an idea. The only thing that put me off after driving one extensively at the ring was the front wheel drive and it felt a little fragile. After R5 Turbo ownership in my teens, I never forget having endless cooling and headgasket issues. put me off for life. Was yours reliable?
The R26R Now theres an idea. The only thing that put me off after driving one extensively at the ring was the front wheel drive and it felt a little fragile. After R5 Turbo ownership in my teens, I never forget having endless cooling and headgasket issues. put me off for life. Was yours reliable?
VonSenger said:
Im used to the paddle shift with my R8 so this shouldnt be a problem.........what am i saying?! Im getting old.
The R26R Now theres an idea. The only thing that put me off after driving one extensively at the ring was the front wheel drive and it felt a little fragile. After R5 Turbo ownership in my teens, I never forget having endless cooling and headgasket issues. put me off for life. Was yours reliable?
http://www.auto-journals.com/journals/Renault?model=Megane&journal=120&entry=1313The R26R Now theres an idea. The only thing that put me off after driving one extensively at the ring was the front wheel drive and it felt a little fragile. After R5 Turbo ownership in my teens, I never forget having endless cooling and headgasket issues. put me off for life. Was yours reliable?
(at the bottI'm of each report there's a link to the next one)
In just over a year we did well over 100+ laps of the ring, a couple of days at spa, track days at Le mans, oulton park etc etc & it never let me down once. The car lives over at the ring now, & they weren't built on the megane line either but in the F1 facility over in Dieppe.
I can't recommend them enough & if I had the space & money I'd have one back in a heartbeat. You soon get used to the fwd thing & it isn't an issue unless you like drifting.
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