Is the new 911 too good for its own good?

[sagarich]

Autocar's Steve Sutcliffe, latest blog: Is the new 911 too good for its own good?

Blog link: http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/stillatthewheel/arc...

Video review: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/porsche-911-vid...

Thoughts?

Update: Here's the youtube link for iOS users: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMzvLSapvaA&fea...

Edited by sagarich on Thursday 9th February 13:00

[anonymous-user]

I am not sure if any car can be too good, but it is different from any other 911 I have owned - from 1970 2.2s to GT3. Closest to the 997 (obviously) but so much more sure footed at the front (albeit with less feel). I would echo Autocar's conclusions - this will leave all naturally aspirated Porsches behind on a standard British road, and you would need the latest RS to show it a clean pair of heels on track. Remarkable car.

Edited by drmark on Thursday 9th February 08:47

[Manks]

I agree with him that the 991 is better in every regard than the car it replaces. There have been a few GTS owners or buyers around here playing down the difference, but that difference is in reality quite marked.

[Captain James T]

He says that it's possibly been over-engineered for its target audience, but if it wasn't that good then it would get rubbish write-ups and no one would buy it so it HAS to be good. It's a catch-22 scenario for Porsche. Just knowing that it's brilliant makes the owners feel smug....

[Manks]

Captain James T said:

He says that it's possibly been over-engineered for its target audience, but if it wasn't that good then it would get rubbish write-ups and no one would buy it so it HAS to be good. It's a catch-22 scenario for Porsche. Just knowing that it's brilliant makes the owners feel smug....

They still don't seem to be selling that many in the UK by all accounts.

[Captain James T]

Manks said:

Captain James T said:

He says that it's possibly been over-engineered for its target audience, but if it wasn't that good then it would get rubbish write-ups and no one would buy it so it HAS to be good. It's a catch-22 scenario for Porsche. Just knowing that it's brilliant makes the owners feel smug....

They still don't seem to be selling that many in the UK by all accounts.

In which case it would be interesting to find out what current percentage of the £80-£100,000 sports car market they are currently taking. If the numbers are small but form a large percentage of that price band then it's doing well. If that's not the case then such a supposedly brilliant car has done something very wrong?

[Manks]

Captain James T said:

In which case it would be interesting to find out what current percentage of the £80-£100,000 sports car market they are currently taking. If the numbers are small but form a large percentage of that price band then it's doing well. If that's not the case then such a supposedly brilliant car has done something very wrong?

I don't think it's the car, I think its the marketing. The car is undeniably brilliant but I think a lot of would-be buyers are concerned that they are going to take a bath financially on the car. If guaranteed future value figures mentioned around here are correct Porsche isn't helping.

I don't know what the profile of new 911 buyers is, but I would imagine the proportion for whom money is no object is significantly outweighed by the one for whom losing £15k per annum on a car is unpaletable.

[betternotbigger]

Manks said:

I agree with him that the 991 is better in every regard than the car it replaces. There have been a few GTS owners or buyers around here playing down the difference, but that difference is in reality quite marked.

Just your opinion, Manks. I walked into my test drive with my cheque book wide open (I'm as bad as that PhooeyPhuckerPhellow) and couldn't find sufficient enthusiasm for the car.

There are differences and some are positive: the PDK and the turn-in are outstandingly good. But you can achieve the latter with a fast road geo from Chris Franklin. And other differences are not all improvements: the raked windscreen might be efficient but it detracts from the beauty, the steering might save a gallon of petrol every 60,000 miles but it doesn't feel as connected to the road, and I simply could not detect the alleged improvements in NVH.

Faster yes, nicer leather yes, more bling yes, more satisfying hmmmmmm....

[Captain James T]

I don't think you're wrong there. If Porsche can balance supply and demand a little better this time and not 'flood the market' (relatively speaking of course) as they did with 996 and 997 in the middle part of the last decade and keep the product a little rarer that will build some confidence back into the market. Consumers will then see better residuals and start to want 911s again by which time there'll be a two-year waiting list...

I think in many ways new Boxster and Cayman models will fill the price point that 911 has now moved out of and am sure that if they are as good as they should be that will balance out the demand across the range. By Porsche expanding the model range across the new CayJun, Cayenne, Panamera, smaller Panamera (PaJun) (like a 5-Series but not a 5-Series), 2+2 Panamera (Pana928), 2+2 Panamera Cabriolet (PanaDrama), and the mid-engined model above the 911 (it's like a 918 but not a 918) the need to sell so many 911s to make sufficient profit will be less important, thereby keeping volumes down and protecting residuals... Does that make sense?

[Carl_Docklands]

sagarich said:

Autocar's Steve Sutcliffe, latest blog: Is the new 911 too good for its own good?

Blog link: http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/stillatthewheel/arc...

Video review: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/porsche-911-vid...

Thoughts?

I don't think you can have a car that is too good, I think the use of the terminology in the title he used is a bit confusing when you then read the content.

Having read his blog I think there is a growing concern amongst some of the press that the new cars are just too fast, over engineered, whatever, to use on UK roads.

The Italia 458 reviews were the first to talk about this, then the Turbo S and then more recently, the GT3 4.0.

I think some UK motor journos shy away from using the words "too fast" and instead use the term "over engineered".

I do smile when people call my 2.9 car under-powered for the UK, maybe its just a manly thing, we want the biggest engines, the fastest cars even if they cannot be used safely on our roads.

I find the 991 an engineering marvel, Porsche don't know how to do it any other way, they are German and that is why we love their cars. Too good? noway. Too fast for the UK? yes.

This is why Porsche also make a stripped 3.4L model :P

[heebeegeetee]

I noticed the cover of the magazine, (which isn't showing on website) has emblazoned across it's front words along the lines of "991 The Greatest useable Sports Car of all Time".

[Manks]

betternotbigger said:

Manks said:

I agree with him that the 991 is better in every regard than the car it replaces. There have been a few GTS owners or buyers around here playing down the difference, but that difference is in reality quite marked.

Just your opinion, Manks.

Well, mine and the writers of most of the magazine reviews I could be bothered to read.

[betternotbigger]

Manks said:

betternotbigger said:

Manks said:

I agree with him that the 991 is better in every regard than the car it replaces. There have been a few GTS owners or buyers around here playing down the difference, but that difference is in reality quite marked.

Just your opinion, Manks.

Well, mine and the writers of most of the magazine reviews I could be bothered to read.

Manks, when someone posts, even with the support of Steve from Autocar, that a car is "better in every regard", the statement simply begs some balance. There is not a single reviewer who has stated that the steering, a Porsche touchstone, is anything other than not as bad as it might have been but definitely worse than the 997. I've not seen any review which has raved about the new interior layout, only remarked on the quality of the finish. And Autocar, though Steve undoubtedly likes the car, summed up their first drive review by describing the GTS as a more involving drive. And I agree with all the above.

Many of the reviews could be summed up as I believe Frankel did: "A better car yes, but a better 911?"

I realise this makes me a fully paid up beard. It had to happen one day.

[Manks]

betternotbigger said:

Manks, when someone posts, even with the support of Steve from Autocar, that a car is "better in every regard", the statement simply begs some balance. There is not a single reviewer who has stated that the steering, a Porsche touchstone, is anything other than not as bad as it might have been but definitely worse than the 997. I've not seen any review which has raved about the new interior layout, only remarked on the quality of the finish. And Autocar, though Steve undoubtedly likes the car, summed up their first drive review by describing the GTS as a more involving drive. And I agree with all the above.

Many of the reviews could be summed up as I believe Frankel did: "A better car yes, but a better 911?"

I realise this makes me a fully paid up beard. It had to happen one day.

I think you're being a bit selective here. Aside from the steering there have been few negative comments about the car and even on that point the thrust has been more, "it's different" rather than anything else. The gist of most articles is that the car is a substantial improvement on the 997.

I drive a manual 997 and I have driven several 991s now, in a variety of conditions and situations. Yes the 997 is more "involving" but that is not a good thing. A choke knob on the dashboard and non-synchro first gear are more "involving" but I am very glad they don't exist anymore. Manual gear selection is more "involving" but I recognise that for all but the top 1% of drivers PDK allows the car to be driven better.

I am not saying that the GTS is not a good car, it is (though I personally did not like it because of the interior and daft wheels) but to argue that the 991 is not a better car is somewhat futile. If you are talking about value, then I suggest the GTS is more of a contender, but in terms of being the best sports car I believe that the 991 has it hands down.

[betternotbigger]

Manks said:

I think you're being a bit selective here. Aside from the steering there have been few negative comments about the car and even on that point the thrust has been more, "it's different" rather than anything else. The gist of most articles is that the car is a substantial improvement on the 997.

I drive a manual 997 and I have driven several 991s now, in a variety of conditions and situations. Yes the 997 is more "involving" but that is not a good thing. A choke knob on the dashboard and non-synchro first gear are more "involving" but I am very glad they don't exist anymore. Manual gear selection is more "involving" but I recognise that for all but the top 1% of drivers PDK allows the car to be driven better.

I am not saying that the GTS is not a good car, it is (though I personally did not like it because of the interior and daft wheels) but to argue that the 991 is not a better car is somewhat futile. If you are talking about value, then I suggest the GTS is more of a contender, but in terms of being the best sports car I believe that the 991 has it hands down.

By any objective measure you are probably right, Manks: faster, more economical, easier handling, more refined (I presume the fact I did not find it so was down to crap tyre setup). All these things make for an objectively "better" car. But involvement is a subjective quality, and from the subjective spring our emotions. I love the 997. I adore the 964, I worship at the altar of the 930, but the 991 left me feeling a little empty. And many of the reviewers have hinted too that something, the 911-ness, is a little lacking.

I'm glad you did not find it so, and no doubt I will have another go in a better speced test 991. I enjoy buying new cars. I'd really like to fall in love with this one. It just didn't happen for me first time round.

Edited by betternotbigger on Thursday 9th February 12:23

[anonymous-user]

Carl_Docklands said:

Having read his blog I think there is a growing concern amongst some of the press that the new cars are just too fast, over engineered, whatever, to use on UK roads.

It's got to be true. If you are out on a public road, your speed is ultimately limited by what you can physically see ahead of you. Would I actually drive a 991 faster than a 997, 996 or even a 993 on a typical UK road? I think the answer is basically no, except for slight differences in straight line acceleration on the straights. I'd still limit my cornering speeds to something sane, I would just be even further from the ultimate cornering limit in a 991 i.e. it would just get easier to drive fast. How many people seriously drive their 997 on the absolute ragged edge around every corner? If you did, how long before you checked out of this World?

Bottom line is cars are getting faster and easier to drive while the roads haven't changed at all (apart from increased traffic making them slower and more risky to drive fast on).

[Manks]

uktrailmonster said:

Bottom line is cars are getting faster and easier to drive while the roads haven't changed at all (apart from increased traffic making them slower and more risky to drive fast on).

Very true. The 991 makes bends come and go a lot quicker and I more than once thought, hmmmm they need to build bigger roads.

[anonymous-user]

Also keep in mind that it (the 991) is likely to be the flagship Porsche for something around 7 years or so.

It has to be able to hold its own against future offerings from all its competitors in that time.

How much of an advance was the Ferrari 458 when it was launched?

[cayman-black]

Is this the best car you can buy for £80-£100k?. For this money there are some nice machines out there,430,997turboS,GT3s, V12Vantage,i know these are second hand cars, but they have lost money already and when you open the garage which would you rather see? Also think it depends on how you use your car, for instance, sunday car i do not think that the new 911 is special enough ,but it is probably a better drive than all of the above. As i would not use it often for me it would be V12V,430 or GT3.
Cars they drive you mad!

[Carl_Docklands]

cayman-black said:

Is this the best car you can buy for £80-£100k?. For this money there are some nice machines out there,430,997turboS,GT3s, V12Vantage,i know these are second hand cars, but they have lost money already and when you open the garage which would you rather see? Also think it depends on how you use your car, for instance, sunday car i do not think that the new 911 is special enough ,but it is probably a better drive than all of the above. As i would not use it often for me it would be V12V,430 or GT3.
Cars they drive you mad!

California in 2+2 config, they get slagged but I liked my short drive in one :>

• runs*