Cayman R and Black Editions Engine Hesitation
Discussion
My main thread on this subject has been running for a number of months over at Planet 9 and so apologies to those of you that have seen this over there, and apologies for cross-posting forums, not something I normally do.
As CR and Black Edition sales have gathered pace there are an increasing number of drivers from as far afield as Germany and Canada reporting engine hesitation problems, like in my own CR, at 50 kph.
This video shows real time OBD outputs at throttle pedal and throttle body. It demonstrates how at 50 kph it feels like the throttle cable turns into a piece of elastic.
Cars in the USA are not affected. Less so are cars with sports exhaust.
Porsche have told me since July that this is not a fault. It would be pure speculation for me to link this strange throttle behavior with the wide-open-throttle (WOT) at 50 kph that is used for the UN/ECE noise emissions test.
I am very interested to hear from any drivers with similar CR/BE throttling problems in the UK that have been told by Porsche that this is a 'characteristic of the engine'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxxHSKZXeBY
... watch this in high-def and full screen to see the OBD outputs properly.
... If anyone has an explanation for this please let me know.
As CR and Black Edition sales have gathered pace there are an increasing number of drivers from as far afield as Germany and Canada reporting engine hesitation problems, like in my own CR, at 50 kph.
This video shows real time OBD outputs at throttle pedal and throttle body. It demonstrates how at 50 kph it feels like the throttle cable turns into a piece of elastic.
Cars in the USA are not affected. Less so are cars with sports exhaust.
Porsche have told me since July that this is not a fault. It would be pure speculation for me to link this strange throttle behavior with the wide-open-throttle (WOT) at 50 kph that is used for the UN/ECE noise emissions test.
I am very interested to hear from any drivers with similar CR/BE throttling problems in the UK that have been told by Porsche that this is a 'characteristic of the engine'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxxHSKZXeBY
... watch this in high-def and full screen to see the OBD outputs properly.
... If anyone has an explanation for this please let me know.
Edited by 10ashers on Monday 13th February 00:19
Finally someone brings this up.
I do have a similar effect on my 7.2 GT3 around the speeds you mention. It is actually annoying on a particularly twisty section on my road home from work. It can really catch you out in case you want to balance the car using the throttle.
Talking to OPC they also told me that there is "nothing they could find"...
I do have a similar effect on my 7.2 GT3 around the speeds you mention. It is actually annoying on a particularly twisty section on my road home from work. It can really catch you out in case you want to balance the car using the throttle.
Talking to OPC they also told me that there is "nothing they could find"...
mathmos said:
Can't help with the issue, but are you sure you should be posting a video of yourself doing nearly 90 on what appears to be a B road somewhere?
Not criticising, just think some blurring of the speed may be a good idea....
Good point but the speed readout is in kph not mph, so speed is between 30 mph and 55 mph.Not criticising, just think some blurring of the speed may be a good idea....
As said by the OP, it's all to do with EU emissions testing. Seems to have kicked in badly from 2008/9 onwards - my 2007 7.1 GT3 doesn't do it, but there have been LOADS of complaints with the 2010 Ducati Multistrada (which I have), which fortunately was eventually rectified after 12 months by the factory with a couple of ECU software upgrades.
The bike couldn't be held at a constant throttle (fly-by-wire) in the 3-4k rpm range and could generate a kind of "pogo-stick" effect. Some were worse than others, however, most people report slightly worse fuel consumption and my exhaust soots up more since the upgrade, so it appears to be a simple richening of the mixture fix? Solved the problem, but I really don't know how Ducati get round the EU homologation rules with this fix - I'm not sure Porsche would stick their necks out in the same way, being higher profile?
The bike couldn't be held at a constant throttle (fly-by-wire) in the 3-4k rpm range and could generate a kind of "pogo-stick" effect. Some were worse than others, however, most people report slightly worse fuel consumption and my exhaust soots up more since the upgrade, so it appears to be a simple richening of the mixture fix? Solved the problem, but I really don't know how Ducati get round the EU homologation rules with this fix - I'm not sure Porsche would stick their necks out in the same way, being higher profile?
Dr S said:
Finally someone brings this up.
I do have a similar effect on my 7.2 GT3 around the speeds you mention. It is actually annoying on a particularly twisty section on my road home from work. It can really catch you out in case you want to balance the car using the throttle.
Talking to OPC they also told me that there is "nothing they could find"...
Very interesting. I do have a similar effect on my 7.2 GT3 around the speeds you mention. It is actually annoying on a particularly twisty section on my road home from work. It can really catch you out in case you want to balance the car using the throttle.
Talking to OPC they also told me that there is "nothing they could find"...
I also find this very annoying. Couldn't agree more with you about how this catches you out when trying to stabilise the car using the throttle. Roundabouts in third are a killer.
Don't believe your OPC. I visited 2 OPC to discuss this problem. Both said this is a 'characteristic of the engine', that all Cayman R suffer this so therefore it is not a fault.
Reading the forums this is a country specific problem so I took a trip to Luxembourg, drove a stock CR there, and guess what, no throttle lag. So the official Porsche line that this is universal is clearly not true.
This doesn't happen in the USA. Suggests this fault is deliberately engineered into the UK cars to bypass UK regulation.
cragswinter on the other thread said:
one last thing was another go at replicating the fault that has been posted about over on the evo forum as someone requested. i didn't want to post about it earlier for fear of a PH thread hijack but here it is & feel free to discuss accordingly....
yes this car does the same.
for those of you who can't be bothered to read the whole thread the fault is basically, sit in fourth gear at 1800rpm, floor the throttle & nothing happens.
no bogging down, no lag, just, well, nothing! a couple of seconds later the ecu wakes up & the fly by wire does its thing & away it goes.
there's obviously a fault in the code somewhere, or perhaps full throttle under heavy load at this engine speed isn't good for the engines health & it takes a couple of seconds for the cars ecu to figure out what it wants to do?
now don't people suggest heavy load & low engine rpm can have certain drastic consequences for an mXX type engine? thank god i don't enjoy conspiracies
would it annoy me like the guy over on evo? no not at all, quite how he found out i wouldn't know? let's be certain, if you plant the throttle down it does take off as expected, this only happens when you floor it to the peddal stop. neither does it happen in any other gear, only 4th, only at exactly 1800rpm & only when you suddenly fully depress the accelerator.
there's some strange thing going on at those sorts of engine speeds anyway, i'd best describe the engine noise under load at those rpm's as like george jetsons flying car on the cartoon?! a sort of warbling on the intake side, perhaps just a quirk of the harmonics of the air flow? who knows....
yes this car does the same.
for those of you who can't be bothered to read the whole thread the fault is basically, sit in fourth gear at 1800rpm, floor the throttle & nothing happens.
no bogging down, no lag, just, well, nothing! a couple of seconds later the ecu wakes up & the fly by wire does its thing & away it goes.
there's obviously a fault in the code somewhere, or perhaps full throttle under heavy load at this engine speed isn't good for the engines health & it takes a couple of seconds for the cars ecu to figure out what it wants to do?
now don't people suggest heavy load & low engine rpm can have certain drastic consequences for an mXX type engine? thank god i don't enjoy conspiracies
would it annoy me like the guy over on evo? no not at all, quite how he found out i wouldn't know? let's be certain, if you plant the throttle down it does take off as expected, this only happens when you floor it to the peddal stop. neither does it happen in any other gear, only 4th, only at exactly 1800rpm & only when you suddenly fully depress the accelerator.
there's some strange thing going on at those sorts of engine speeds anyway, i'd best describe the engine noise under load at those rpm's as like george jetsons flying car on the cartoon?! a sort of warbling on the intake side, perhaps just a quirk of the harmonics of the air flow? who knows....
nsm3 said:
As said by the OP, it's all to do with EU emissions testing. Seems to have kicked in badly from 2008/9 onwards - my 2007 7.1 GT3 doesn't do it, but there have been LOADS of complaints with the 2010 Ducati Multistrada (which I have), which fortunately was eventually rectified after 12 months by the factory with a couple of ECU software upgrades...
Agreed its about emissions regulations, but while Porsche let me think this was originally about CO2 I think the real culprit may be the noise regulations.See paragraph 3.1 on page 10 of this document for details of the existing noise emission tests, then check the speed at which the throttle is 'disconnected' in the video to see why I think the two may be related
cragswinter said:
I read your other thread with great interest and I am grateful to you for testing and commenting on the throttle problems I have reported. I too think the CR is a great car, otherwise I wouldn't have bought one. It is because I think it is such a great car that it upsets me so much that the car sold in the UK may not the car that was originally designed for the US, but that the engine hesitation has perhaps been deliberately created. After driving a CR without this hesitation things were never the same. I knew what I was missing and would never be content with a second class UK version.
Where you say this only happens when you floor it to the pedal stop, this can only add weight to the theory that this phenomenon is created to exist only under the wide-open-throttle (WOT) conditions of the noise emissions test.
Looking at the car in your thread I see from the black tailpipes and your opening post that it is equipped with the standard exhaust and not the £1500 optional sports exhaust that is fitted to all the press cars supplied to UK's motoring journalists.
Looking around the UK forums the engine hesitation problem primarily affects cars fitted with standard exhaust, whereas PSE automatically closes the bypass valves below 60 kph, the speed of the UNECE noise tests.
Edited by 10ashers on Monday 13th February 11:30
Edited by 10ashers on Monday 13th February 11:35
Edited by 10ashers on Monday 13th February 11:36
10ashers said:
Where you say this only happens when you floor it to the pedal stop, this can only add weight to the theory that this phenomenon is created to exist only under the wide-open-throttle (WOT) conditions of the noise emissions test.
quite possibly true, but seeing as i could only get the car to do it under those precise circumstances i can't understand why it would upset you so much? i simply can't imagine a scenario where you would ever sit in fourth gear at 1800 rpm & need to floor the throttle to the pedal stop?as i said in my report, any deviation of rpm by say 50, any other gear or even flooring the throttle but just not to the stop does not produce the effect?
it's quirky i'll give you that, & it's interesting that this is what they had to do to get it past our noise regs but i certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it?
Neither can I understand his beef.. Look at it this way, I read about "the problem" and then ordered a car in spite of it.
I understand the need to correct a flaw though and to each his own but as for me,....
I have zero intention on dragging the engine at below 2000 rpm so completely irrelevant to me.. For those that do that, well, that's no way to treat a high performance machine...
I understand the need to correct a flaw though and to each his own but as for me,....
I have zero intention on dragging the engine at below 2000 rpm so completely irrelevant to me.. For those that do that, well, that's no way to treat a high performance machine...
cragswinter said:
... i can't understand why it would upset you so much? i simply can't imagine a scenario where you would ever sit in fourth gear at 1800 rpm & need to floor the throttle to the pedal stop? ...
It depends how much time you spend in slow moving traffic and within speed limits. The throttle disconnects at 32 mph in third and fourth so if you have a 30 limit near you it is pretty easy to fall into the hole in normal driving. I can only guess that during your 5 day trial you did what any right minded person would do took it to the open road to drive it like you you stole it. I can remember sitting in slow moving motorway traffic and changing lanes only to find some previously concealed juggernaut behind me doing 50 to my 30. Nine times out of ten I could throttle the car and easily accelerate out of danger. In 3rd or 4th gear with so little engine load. In this game of Russian throttle roulette I floored it and nothing happened except glaring lights and horn behind me as I narrowly escaped being crushed. This sort of pant-soiling episode only needs to happen once before I relegated the CR to open roads only.
There are also the wider issues of ethics and integrity to consider.
If Porsche have indeed deliberately injected this throttle delay into the ECU at noise test speeds then this has not made the CR any quieter but has simple delayed the acceleration. This is a cheat rather than a clean pass of the test. It may be to the letter, but is certainly not to the spirit of the law. The reality is that the throttle pedal 'disconnection' at 50 kph achieves no real noise reduction and makes a dangerous ECU hack look even more ridiculous.
On the other question of just how the UK car mysteriously enjoys better fuel economy and lower CO2 to dip below the 225 tax point, Porsche are very tight lipped.
Perhaps playing fast and loose with tax and emissions regulations that would make an Athens swimming pool owner proud is not universally popular. Some of us do have a social conscience and accept the rule of law.
If this throttle hesitation is so benign then how come Porsche don't point this out during a test drive, or in their brochure? To the contrary, page 18 of the Cayman R Brochure proudly boasts ...
The Cayman R responds to every touch of the accelerator pedal with radical forward thrust
Which certainly isn't true.
I was told by the Porsche organisation, from Stuttgart through Reading and OPC that the engine hesitation is
an engine characteristics that affect all DFI cars
Which again isn't true.
For me, this isn't just about the engine issue, annoying that it is, but is about what this issue has revealed about Porsche; The way it does business and the way it treats its customers.
khooni said:
Neither can I understand his beef.. Look at it this way, I read about "the problem" and then ordered a car in spite of it.
I understand the need to correct a flaw though and to each his own but as for me,....
I have zero intention on dragging the engine at below 2000 rpm so completely irrelevant to me.. For those that do that, well, that's no way to treat a high performance machine...
I've heard all the engine lugging stuff before.I understand the need to correct a flaw though and to each his own but as for me,....
I have zero intention on dragging the engine at below 2000 rpm so completely irrelevant to me.. For those that do that, well, that's no way to treat a high performance machine...
At what speed does your car idle ? Below 2k rpm? Yes. Why? Because there is no engine load.
Similarly, at 30mph constant speed, the only force to load the engine is drag. Drag, as we all know is a function of a square of the speed. Drag does not start to appear until 20mph. Compare how marathon runners do not need to slipstream, at 15mph compared to cyclists at 25 mph.
At a constant 30 mph there is so little load on the engine that 3rd gear at 2k rpm is the normal driving range. Driving in second gear at this speed with so little engine load is as insane as idling the engine at 2k rpm.
Don't just take my word for it, look at the German Forum
Your car is likely not affected by the engine problem because in the UK cars with sports exhaust do not generally get the ECU hack. Because of course, the exhaust closes at low speeds.
Fitting the sports exhaust as standard to the CR in the UK may have been the right thing to do instead of hacking the ECU.
10ashers said:
cragswinter said:
... i can't understand why it would upset you so much? i simply can't imagine a scenario where you would ever sit in fourth gear at 1800 rpm & need to floor the throttle to the pedal stop? ...
It depends how much time you spend in slow moving traffic and within speed limits. The throttle disconnects at 32 mph in third and fourth so if you have a 30 limit near you it is pretty easy to fall into the hole in normal driving. I can only guess that during your 5 day trial you did what any right minded person would do took it to the open road to drive it like you you stole it. I can remember sitting in slow moving motorway traffic and changing lanes only to find some previously concealed juggernaut behind me doing 50 to my 30. Nine times out of ten I could throttle the car and easily accelerate out of danger. In 3rd or 4th gear with so little engine load. In this game of Russian throttle roulette I floored it and nothing happened except glaring lights and horn behind me as I narrowly escaped being crushed. This sort of pant-soiling episode only needs to happen once before I relegated the CR to open roads only.
(by flawed i mean a/ you were daft enough to pull out on an hgv & b/ even if the throttle problem didn't exist you seriously expect a caymen at 1800rpm in fourth to be able to out accelerate anything that was bearing down on you so quickly to make any difference to the outcome?)
i could not however, get the car to do it in third gear at the same engine speed.
10ashers said:
For me, this isn't just about the engine issue, annoying that it is, but is about what this issue has revealed about Porsche; The way it does business and the way it treats its customers.
it's very hard to perceive quite how someone is coming across in a forum based conversation, but this comment would suggest your biggest issue.you're not happy & you intend to kick up a stink about it.
no offence mate
it's just how you come across to me & i freely admit i may be wrong about you. i just wouldn't let this problem put me off a porsche (i leave that to the woeful reputation of their m9X type engine ).10ashers said:
For me, this isn't just about the engine issue, annoying that it is, but is about what this issue has revealed about Porsche; The way it does business and the way it treats its customers.
I think this may have come across a bit more dour than I had intended ..oops.For several months I have found this increasingly bizarre and very entertaining.
I like Porsche cars a lot but the people in suits are worse than Del Boy and Rodney.
My point is... when told some nonsense like a fault is a characteristic of the engine then look beyond the brand loyalty, wake up, smell the coffee and give such a statement the credibility it deserves. About zero
Just trying to get my head around this so don't shoot me down just yet; I'll freely admit I haven't read the thread entirely for once......
You know there is a 'characteristic' to certain vehicle versions, UK spec / C16 being one.
You have found a reason for the characteristic - Emissions (Sound or Pollutant)
If the UK map setup is 'as-is' then it is a 'characteristic', certain vehicles do it, so the PC's in question are correct; no?
What are you looking for?
You know there is a 'characteristic' to certain vehicle versions, UK spec / C16 being one.
You have found a reason for the characteristic - Emissions (Sound or Pollutant)
If the UK map setup is 'as-is' then it is a 'characteristic', certain vehicles do it, so the PC's in question are correct; no?
What are you looking for?
Pope said:
Just trying to get my head around this so don't shoot me down just yet; I'll freely admit I haven't read the thread entirely for once......
You know there is a 'characteristic' to certain vehicle versions, UK spec / C16 being one.
You have found a reason for the characteristic - Emissions (Sound or Pollutant)
If the UK map setup is 'as-is' then it is a 'characteristic', certain vehicles do it, so the PC's in question are correct; no?
What are you looking for?
What's so funny is that OPC and Porsche UK tell me that ALL Cayman R do this. Not just UK, but everywhere. So therefore it is not a fault. You know there is a 'characteristic' to certain vehicle versions, UK spec / C16 being one.
You have found a reason for the characteristic - Emissions (Sound or Pollutant)
If the UK map setup is 'as-is' then it is a 'characteristic', certain vehicles do it, so the PC's in question are correct; no?
What are you looking for?
So I go to Luxembourg (via a spin on the Nurburgring
) and get to test a Luxembourg CR. No problems like my car. So Porsche UK are perhaps being a bit economical with the truth. I phone Porsche UK to share this nugget and their ever-friendly Customer Assistance team tell me that their engineers have not driven this Luxembourg CR and so it must be untrue.
In this instance, Porsche are not telling us the whole story.
Porsche refuse to fix the throttle lag after 7 months. Cars in Luxembourg was fine so it can't be that difficult right?
Already on this thread, another owner has posted he has the same symptoms and received the same brushoff from Porsche.
I'm not after anything. But it is worth discussing the possibility that there may be another version of why some cars have dead spots at 50k.
Edited by 10ashers on Monday 13th February 16:12
Edited by 10ashers on Monday 13th February 16:13
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