How much better is the 997 Gen II ?
Discussion
So I am aim to get myself into a 997 by the end of the year, RRS is sold...new family car sorted so nothing in my way...so I thought! I have done ALOT of reading in the last few weeks, poured over the Hartech guides and tech info (not that I understand much of it), read pretty much every owner experience the internet has to offer, even been to look at a few 997.1's to get a feel on praticality for the little man sitting in the back. My budget is 30-35k which should get me into on 2007 C2S from a reputable indy at the end of the year.
The only niggle is the 997.2 which is currently sitting at about 10k higher than my budget, I cannot dismiss the added attraction of no IMS to worry about, improved cooling characteristics to avoid bore scoring...but these are the only attributes I am evaluating on, am I missing something? Does the 997.2 offer 10k more in terms of value, is the added reliability the only draw or is that car so much better...or am I overstating the issues on the 997.1 on that front?
I am aware there is a power uplift but that does not bother me, I think the 355bhp in the 997.1 is more than enough for me. Who here has had both and can comment on the 2 cars?
Confused, JD
The only niggle is the 997.2 which is currently sitting at about 10k higher than my budget, I cannot dismiss the added attraction of no IMS to worry about, improved cooling characteristics to avoid bore scoring...but these are the only attributes I am evaluating on, am I missing something? Does the 997.2 offer 10k more in terms of value, is the added reliability the only draw or is that car so much better...or am I overstating the issues on the 997.1 on that front?
I am aware there is a power uplift but that does not bother me, I think the 355bhp in the 997.1 is more than enough for me. Who here has had both and can comment on the 2 cars?
Confused, JD
Edited by jdwoodbury on Monday 19th March 08:35
Edited by jdwoodbury on Monday 19th March 08:41
If you buy a 997.2, you'll obviously be buying a newer car, which
upto now, seems to have fixed the potential engine problems listed.
If this continues, I suspect the depreciation of the 997.2 cars will
be significantly less than the Gen.1 cars which could also be a bonus.
I've owned both generation cars, and to be honest, I would'nt say there is
any significant difference in the driving experience of both cars.
If you can afford it, I'd definitely buy a 997.2 car, ideally with a Porsche
Warranty, which is what I've done and I love it.
Also, if you get a 997.2 3.6 C2, the road tax will be 260 rather than 445,
not a lot I know, but worth considering.
upto now, seems to have fixed the potential engine problems listed.
If this continues, I suspect the depreciation of the 997.2 cars will
be significantly less than the Gen.1 cars which could also be a bonus.
I've owned both generation cars, and to be honest, I would'nt say there is
any significant difference in the driving experience of both cars.
If you can afford it, I'd definitely buy a 997.2 car, ideally with a Porsche
Warranty, which is what I've done and I love it.
Also, if you get a 997.2 3.6 C2, the road tax will be 260 rather than 445,
not a lot I know, but worth considering.
Edited by carcrazypop on Monday 19th March 08:37
scarebus said:
Get a 997.1 in the exact colour and spec you want and save you 10k for 10 years OPC warranty.
Stand to be corrected but I think there is an age limit on the opc warranty?Having driven both .1 and .2 C2 manual coupes must say I preferred the .1 to drive. Can't comment on reliability issues, have read the threads and no one seems prepared to offer up a percentage likelihood of problems.
AdYa said:
Stand to be corrected but I think there is an age limit on the opc warranty?
Having driven both .1 and .2 C2 manual coupes must say I preferred the .1 to drive. Can't comment on reliability issues, have read the threads and no one seems prepared to offer up a percentage likelihood of problems.
Interesting, out of interest, why did you prefer the Gen.1 to drive over the Gen.2 ? I know I'm no driving god, but I can't say that I've noticed any significant difference between the two.Having driven both .1 and .2 C2 manual coupes must say I preferred the .1 to drive. Can't comment on reliability issues, have read the threads and no one seems prepared to offer up a percentage likelihood of problems.
carcrazypop said:
AdYa said:
Stand to be corrected but I think there is an age limit on the opc warranty?
Having driven both .1 and .2 C2 manual coupes must say I preferred the .1 to drive. Can't comment on reliability issues, have read the threads and no one seems prepared to offer up a percentage likelihood of problems.
Interesting, out of interest, why did you prefer the Gen.1 to drive over the Gen.2 ? I know I'm no driving god, but I can't say that I've noticed any significant difference between the two.Having driven both .1 and .2 C2 manual coupes must say I preferred the .1 to drive. Can't comment on reliability issues, have read the threads and no one seems prepared to offer up a percentage likelihood of problems.
I currently have a Gen-2 C2S. Previous car was a Gen-1 C2S
Compared to the Gen-1, the Gen-2 car is a serious all-round improvement. This assumes both cars are left as standard. Some examples:
Engine
The DFI engine is much stronger, both in terms of longevity and performance. The engine design was completely new for the Gen-2 and addressed all the known weaknesses of the M96/7 engines. The crankcase halves are now made from alusil and the bores are part of the main casting. The bore tops are also 'closed-deck' which eliminates the chunking and going-out-of round that could happen to the the bores of the earlier engines. The intermediate shaft and all its attendant extra chains and moving parts are eliminated. The separate steel crankshaft block (the misalignment of which was responsible for the rear oil seal issues that plagued the M96/7) is similarly no longer used. Performance-wise, the new engine pulls harder from lower in the rpm range and hits a torque 'plateau' at about 4000rpm which stays relatively flat until about 6000 rpm. This gives stronger performance right across the rpm band with none of the obvious torque 'holes' that the earlier engine suffers from. Together with the PDK transmission, the new car is significantly faster than the Gen-1 but you do lose some driver involvement compared to the manual.
Interior
The PCM3 is a step-change from the PCM2. You wouldn't want to go back. This has been documented well on here in the past. Also very noticeable is a big improvement in the quality of some of the materials used in the interior, particularly the leather for the seats which is much harder wearing.
Suspension
The PASM suspension was overhauled for the Gen-2. The result is a much better damped car - in particular the underdamped 'floatiness' is gone from the front end, as is the mid-corner 'corkscrewing' motion that you can sometimes feel in the Gen-1. Grip, turn-in, and mid-corner stability are all improved and I personally think the Gen-2 doesn't understeer as much as the Gen-1.
Downsides - Where the Gen-2 isn't as good...
2 things come immediately to mind.
First is the sound of the car - the Gen-2 is even more over-silenced than the Gen-1. With the non-PSE factory exhaust, it really does sound like a Dyson! Listening to PSE-equipped Gen-2 cars, the difference isn't that great either. The exception to this is the GTS that sounds awesome - possibly due to the included X-51 package which has a dual-length intake tuned for max ram-effect at high rpm and gives the engine a whole different character. If you add a decent aftermarket exhaust to both, the DFI engine can sound better than the M97. There are however, no real bolt-on power gains to be made with the later engine.
Second is steering feel. The Gen-2 steering feels more damped than the Gen-1. This is independent of the setup on the car - I had both done by Center Gravity and we played around with several different configurations to get the cars how I wanted them. Always the Gen-2 was slighly less 'alive-feeling', but it's only a small difference.
FWIW, if you can afford it, my recommendation would be that you DEFINITELY go with the Gen-2. It's newer, has had engineering solutions applied that, anecdotally, seem to have eliminated the issues in the Gen-1. It handles better, goes harder, is better made and IMHO, looks more modern (but not in the slightly vulgar, over-wheeled, way of the 991). If the Gen-2's bullet-proof reputation is maintained, long-term, it could also have very positive repercussions come resale time.
Compared to the Gen-1, the Gen-2 car is a serious all-round improvement. This assumes both cars are left as standard. Some examples:
Engine
The DFI engine is much stronger, both in terms of longevity and performance. The engine design was completely new for the Gen-2 and addressed all the known weaknesses of the M96/7 engines. The crankcase halves are now made from alusil and the bores are part of the main casting. The bore tops are also 'closed-deck' which eliminates the chunking and going-out-of round that could happen to the the bores of the earlier engines. The intermediate shaft and all its attendant extra chains and moving parts are eliminated. The separate steel crankshaft block (the misalignment of which was responsible for the rear oil seal issues that plagued the M96/7) is similarly no longer used. Performance-wise, the new engine pulls harder from lower in the rpm range and hits a torque 'plateau' at about 4000rpm which stays relatively flat until about 6000 rpm. This gives stronger performance right across the rpm band with none of the obvious torque 'holes' that the earlier engine suffers from. Together with the PDK transmission, the new car is significantly faster than the Gen-1 but you do lose some driver involvement compared to the manual.
Interior
The PCM3 is a step-change from the PCM2. You wouldn't want to go back. This has been documented well on here in the past. Also very noticeable is a big improvement in the quality of some of the materials used in the interior, particularly the leather for the seats which is much harder wearing.
Suspension
The PASM suspension was overhauled for the Gen-2. The result is a much better damped car - in particular the underdamped 'floatiness' is gone from the front end, as is the mid-corner 'corkscrewing' motion that you can sometimes feel in the Gen-1. Grip, turn-in, and mid-corner stability are all improved and I personally think the Gen-2 doesn't understeer as much as the Gen-1.
Downsides - Where the Gen-2 isn't as good...
2 things come immediately to mind.
First is the sound of the car - the Gen-2 is even more over-silenced than the Gen-1. With the non-PSE factory exhaust, it really does sound like a Dyson! Listening to PSE-equipped Gen-2 cars, the difference isn't that great either. The exception to this is the GTS that sounds awesome - possibly due to the included X-51 package which has a dual-length intake tuned for max ram-effect at high rpm and gives the engine a whole different character. If you add a decent aftermarket exhaust to both, the DFI engine can sound better than the M97. There are however, no real bolt-on power gains to be made with the later engine.
Second is steering feel. The Gen-2 steering feels more damped than the Gen-1. This is independent of the setup on the car - I had both done by Center Gravity and we played around with several different configurations to get the cars how I wanted them. Always the Gen-2 was slighly less 'alive-feeling', but it's only a small difference.
FWIW, if you can afford it, my recommendation would be that you DEFINITELY go with the Gen-2. It's newer, has had engineering solutions applied that, anecdotally, seem to have eliminated the issues in the Gen-1. It handles better, goes harder, is better made and IMHO, looks more modern (but not in the slightly vulgar, over-wheeled, way of the 991). If the Gen-2's bullet-proof reputation is maintained, long-term, it could also have very positive repercussions come resale time.
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Monday 19th March 10:53
I'd be going Gen2, 3.6.
They are a smidgen over 40K at the moment, they have the new engine, 345 BHP compared to 355 in the Gen1 S version , so real world as quick.
What you don't get is red calipers and an S badge on the boot.
There's less choice as most cars for sale are the S version though.
They are a smidgen over 40K at the moment, they have the new engine, 345 BHP compared to 355 in the Gen1 S version , so real world as quick.
What you don't get is red calipers and an S badge on the boot.
There's less choice as most cars for sale are the S version though.
I have an 06 7.1 C2 and recently drove an 11 7.2 C2 in broadly comparable (poverty) spec
The G2 was overall a nicer car, but it had only done 11k compared to the 34k on my G1
Was it worth the thick end of £30k to do the change?
No
Would it be worth £10k more to buy an early G2 than a late G1. Not sure. Would a G2 C2 be worth looking at versus a G1 C2S. I think so.
That said, if you want some sort of Auto, PDK is miles ahead of Tiptronic. Personally, I wouldn't look at a tiptronic having had a few goes in PDK cars
The G2 was overall a nicer car, but it had only done 11k compared to the 34k on my G1
Was it worth the thick end of £30k to do the change?
No
Would it be worth £10k more to buy an early G2 than a late G1. Not sure. Would a G2 C2 be worth looking at versus a G1 C2S. I think so.
That said, if you want some sort of Auto, PDK is miles ahead of Tiptronic. Personally, I wouldn't look at a tiptronic having had a few goes in PDK cars
TBH I had not considered PDK as my search was going to be based on the 997.1, having had a tiptronic 987 I would not go back so manual is what I had planned for. I should give PDK a look if I am going to consider the 997.2 which by all accounts on here is what I should be doing. Many thanks for the feedback, I need to go and drive a 997.2 to see for myself.
carcrazypop said:
Callughan said:
As mentioned only really worth it if going from tip to pdk(not that tip is bad), otherwise not so much really depends on the price difference. Gen 2 have own issues and sound worse.
Please explain 'Gen2 have own issues', interested to hear what you mean.Thanks.
Callughan said:
carcrazypop said:
Callughan said:
As mentioned only really worth it if going from tip to pdk(not that tip is bad), otherwise not so much really depends on the price difference. Gen 2 have own issues and sound worse.
Please explain 'Gen2 have own issues', interested to hear what you mean.Thanks.
had now been fixed.
As for electronic gremlins & carbon build up, are these based on reported
factual incidents or the internet rumour mill.
My Gen.2 car has now covered 20k miles & touch wood, everything is running and working perfectly.
carcrazypop said:
Callughan said:
carcrazypop said:
Callughan said:
As mentioned only really worth it if going from tip to pdk(not that tip is bad), otherwise not so much really depends on the price difference. Gen 2 have own issues and sound worse.
Please explain 'Gen2 have own issues', interested to hear what you mean.Thanks.
had now been fixed.
As for electronic gremlins & carbon build up, are these based on reported
factual incidents or the internet rumour mill.
My Gen.2 car has now covered 20k miles & touch wood, everything is running and working perfectly.
Had a .1 C2S for 12 months, and have presently been running for the last year a .2 C4S Cab PDK (up for sale btw).
The Gen 2 has better stability at speed, a slightly better ride, slightly better fuel economy, and none of the IMS worries every time you put your foot down.
Get on with it, your only here once
The Gen 2 has better stability at speed, a slightly better ride, slightly better fuel economy, and none of the IMS worries every time you put your foot down.
Get on with it, your only here once
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