Ignition Range 2 over revs
Discussion
Hi all, I'm looking at another prospective car purchase and this time I have a question about over revs...
996 gt3 covered 40k miles 1381 running hours.
Range 1 59760 @ 377 hours
Range 2 381 @ 260 hours
Question is, should I be concerned about the range 2 over revs, or are they so long ago in the cars history that I shouldn't worry about them any more ?
996 gt3 covered 40k miles 1381 running hours.
Range 1 59760 @ 377 hours
Range 2 381 @ 260 hours
Question is, should I be concerned about the range 2 over revs, or are they so long ago in the cars history that I shouldn't worry about them any more ?
jamesrose said:
Hi all, I'm looking at another prospective car purchase and this time I have a question about over revs...
996 gt3 covered 40k miles 1381 running hours.
Range 1 59760 @ 377 hours
Range 2 381 @ 260 hours
Question is, should I be concerned about the range 2 over revs, or are they so long ago in the cars history that I shouldn't worry about them any more ?
You should use the presence of any overrevs as an incentive to subject the car to a thorough test ride/drive. 'course, you should use the absence of any overrevs as an incentive to subject the car to a thorough test ride/drive.996 gt3 covered 40k miles 1381 running hours.
Range 1 59760 @ 377 hours
Range 2 381 @ 260 hours
Question is, should I be concerned about the range 2 over revs, or are they so long ago in the cars history that I shouldn't worry about them any more ?
I asked a couple of senior Porsche techs about this overrev counter business the other day. From memory the only time the overrev counts count for anything is if the car is brought in with a sick engine. Then the overrev counts can be used to deny a warranty claim because the overrev counts (the ranges with counts in them) signal the driver made a shifting mistake.
As long as the engine is run long enough after the overrevs occurred to ensure the engine isn't suffering from the effects of the overrevs, the engine's ok.
This is one reason why a thorough test ride/drive is so important. It gives the engine plenty of time, plenty of opportunities to manifest any signs of trouble from overrevs or anything else for that matter.
In the case of the car you are thinking about, that the overrevs occurred so far in the past really all you need to focus on is the car's current condition.
How?
Hint: Subject the car to a thorough test ride/drive.
Sincerely,
Rockster.
I thought there were 6 rev ranges and the first two aren't usually a concern? ie:
Rev range 1 - bounced off the limiter, all ok, that's what it's there for
2 - slight over rev, warranty survives, just...
3 - large over rev, warranty denied
, probably ok though
4 - huge over rev, warranty denied, damage likely, get your wallet out
5 - definate engine damage, as above and bend over
6 - HOW???
Well F**ked! Er, as above but with no lube! 
If you survive a proper RR6, get a lottery ticket!
I'm sure someone will shoot me down for attempting a little light-heartedness, and then someone else with 'the knowledge' will inform all and be praised!
Rev range 1 - bounced off the limiter, all ok, that's what it's there for
2 - slight over rev, warranty survives, just...
3 - large over rev, warranty denied
, probably ok though 4 - huge over rev, warranty denied, damage likely, get your wallet out
5 - definate engine damage, as above and bend over
6 - HOW???
Well F**ked! Er, as above but with no lube! If you survive a proper RR6, get a lottery ticket!
I'm sure someone will shoot me down for attempting a little light-heartedness, and then someone else with 'the knowledge' will inform all and be praised!
The 6.gt3 records just the 2 ranges, range 1 is time at the redline/ limiter ( ie having accelerated there) with range 2 being 'overrevs' ie buzzing the engine on a down change.
I would heed Henry's advice though- occurred a long time ago vs. total hours running. You can use 911v gt3 ads to work out how many seconds those recorded ignitions add up to.
I would heed Henry's advice though- occurred a long time ago vs. total hours running. You can use 911v gt3 ads to work out how many seconds those recorded ignitions add up to.
Jim1556 said:
I thought there were 6 rev ranges and the first two aren't usually a concern? ie:
Rev range 1 - bounced off the limiter, all ok, that's what it's there for
2 - slight over rev, warranty survives, just...
3 - large over rev, warranty denied, probably ok though
4 - huge over rev, warranty denied, damage likely, get your wallet out
5 - definate engine damage, as above and bend over
6 - HOW??? Well F**ked! Er, as above but with no lube!
If you survive a proper RR6, get a lottery ticket!
I'm sure someone will shoot me down for attempting a little light-heartedness, and then someone else with 'the knowledge' will inform all and be praised!
They are nothing like thatRev range 1 - bounced off the limiter, all ok, that's what it's there for
2 - slight over rev, warranty survives, just...
3 - large over rev, warranty denied
, probably ok though 4 - huge over rev, warranty denied, damage likely, get your wallet out
5 - definate engine damage, as above and bend over
6 - HOW???
Well F**ked! Er, as above but with no lube! If you survive a proper RR6, get a lottery ticket!
I'm sure someone will shoot me down for attempting a little light-heartedness, and then someone else with 'the knowledge' will inform all and be praised!
I had a 996TT inspected by Peter Morgan recently. That car had a slightly higher number of ignitions in ignition range 1 and almost identical number in ignition range 2.
It equated to about 180 seconds total running at the red line and just under 1 second of over-revs.
Peter Morgan advised me against buying the car because (apart from other issues) the over-revs had occurred only 10 running hours before the inspection, and also the number of ignitions in rev range 1 were almost double what he had ever seen before, despite the car only having covered 38k miles.
I subsequently managed speak to someone in the technical dept of Porsche UK HQ Reading. They advised that they would not be too concerned about IR1, but that IR2 could definitely be problematic. However, if the engine had run for at least around 100 hours without issue it might suggest that no critical damage had occurred. The engine can be tested for warranty purposes but they have to send off all the diagnostics to Germany for analysis.
Hope that helps.
Chris
It equated to about 180 seconds total running at the red line and just under 1 second of over-revs.
Peter Morgan advised me against buying the car because (apart from other issues) the over-revs had occurred only 10 running hours before the inspection, and also the number of ignitions in rev range 1 were almost double what he had ever seen before, despite the car only having covered 38k miles.
I subsequently managed speak to someone in the technical dept of Porsche UK HQ Reading. They advised that they would not be too concerned about IR1, but that IR2 could definitely be problematic. However, if the engine had run for at least around 100 hours without issue it might suggest that no critical damage had occurred. The engine can be tested for warranty purposes but they have to send off all the diagnostics to Germany for analysis.
Hope that helps.
Chris
CHJ said:
I had a 996TT inspected by Peter Morgan recently. That car had a slightly higher number of ignitions in ignition range 1 and almost identical number in ignition range 2.
It equated to about 180 seconds total running at the red line and just under 1 second of over-revs.
Peter Morgan advised me against buying the car because (apart from other issues) the over-revs had occurred only 10 running hours before the inspection, and also the number of ignitions in rev range 1 were almost double what he had ever seen before, despite the car only having covered 38k miles.
I subsequently managed speak to someone in the technical dept of Porsche UK HQ Reading. They advised that they would not be too concerned about IR1, but that IR2 could definitely be problematic. However, if the engine had run for at least around 100 hours without issue it might suggest that no critical damage had occurred. The engine can be tested for warranty purposes but they have to send off all the diagnostics to Germany for analysis.
Hope that helps.
Chris
I think that any over revs in RR 1 really aren't an issue. As has been said on here previously, the rev limiter is there for a reason, as long as it's doing its job, you can't inflict any damage on the engine as its very use precludes you doing so. Type 2 over revs are another issue altogether. Porsche have got savvy to these and have moved the goalposts to the point of getting OPCs to carry out compression tests AND an inspection of the oil filter/housing to check for any signs of metallurgical contamination resulting from the over revs.It equated to about 180 seconds total running at the red line and just under 1 second of over-revs.
Peter Morgan advised me against buying the car because (apart from other issues) the over-revs had occurred only 10 running hours before the inspection, and also the number of ignitions in rev range 1 were almost double what he had ever seen before, despite the car only having covered 38k miles.
I subsequently managed speak to someone in the technical dept of Porsche UK HQ Reading. They advised that they would not be too concerned about IR1, but that IR2 could definitely be problematic. However, if the engine had run for at least around 100 hours without issue it might suggest that no critical damage had occurred. The engine can be tested for warranty purposes but they have to send off all the diagnostics to Germany for analysis.
Hope that helps.
Chris
Switched on independents now have guidelines for purchasing cars with recent Type 2 over revs. Once a car has run for a minimum of hours after the event, they're happy to entertain purchasing as long as the rest of the car stacks up. If you turn up on their doorstep with a car that's had type 2 overevs in the last fifty hours, you'll most likely be shown the door.
Slippydiff said:
CHJ said:
I had a 996TT inspected by Peter Morgan recently. That car had a slightly higher number of ignitions in ignition range 1 and almost identical number in ignition range 2.
It equated to about 180 seconds total running at the red line and just under 1 second of over-revs.
Peter Morgan advised me against buying the car because (apart from other issues) the over-revs had occurred only 10 running hours before the inspection, and also the number of ignitions in rev range 1 were almost double what he had ever seen before, despite the car only having covered 38k miles.
I subsequently managed speak to someone in the technical dept of Porsche UK HQ Reading. They advised that they would not be too concerned about IR1, but that IR2 could definitely be problematic. However, if the engine had run for at least around 100 hours without issue it might suggest that no critical damage had occurred. The engine can be tested for warranty purposes but they have to send off all the diagnostics to Germany for analysis.
Hope that helps.
Chris
I think that any over revs in RR 1 really aren't an issue. As has been said on here previously, the rev limiter is there for a reason, as long as it's doing its job, you can't inflict any damage on the engine as its very use precludes you doing so. Type 2 over revs are another issue altogether. Porsche have got savvy to these and have moved the goalposts to the point of getting OPCs to carry out compression tests AND an inspection of the oil filter/housing to check for any signs of metallurgical contamination resulting from the over revs.It equated to about 180 seconds total running at the red line and just under 1 second of over-revs.
Peter Morgan advised me against buying the car because (apart from other issues) the over-revs had occurred only 10 running hours before the inspection, and also the number of ignitions in rev range 1 were almost double what he had ever seen before, despite the car only having covered 38k miles.
I subsequently managed speak to someone in the technical dept of Porsche UK HQ Reading. They advised that they would not be too concerned about IR1, but that IR2 could definitely be problematic. However, if the engine had run for at least around 100 hours without issue it might suggest that no critical damage had occurred. The engine can be tested for warranty purposes but they have to send off all the diagnostics to Germany for analysis.
Hope that helps.
Chris
Switched on independents now have guidelines for purchasing cars with recent Type 2 over revs. Once a car has run for a minimum of hours after the event, they're happy to entertain purchasing as long as the rest of the car stacks up. If you turn up on their doorstep with a car that's had type 2 overevs in the last fifty hours, you'll most likely be shown the door.
RR 1 is not an issue. RR 2 would be a concern if recent, otherwise would not be concerned.
Re the other comment about operating hours, 25-30mph is about right - you'd be surprised how many people think it should be higher.
So it sounds like the consensus here is that as the range 2 over rev was over 1000 hours ago every thing should be fine !
I come from noble ownership where I was lucky if the ecu worked at all let alone recorded any data. Long gone are the days of buying a used car and just enjoying it !
I come from noble ownership where I was lucky if the ecu worked at all let alone recorded any data. Long gone are the days of buying a used car and just enjoying it !
CHJ said:
..That car had a slightly higher number of ignitions in ignition range 1 and almost identical number in ignition range 2.
It equated to about 180 seconds total running at the red line and just under 1 second of over-revs.
Those two sentences sound contradictory to me. It equated to about 180 seconds total running at the red line and just under 1 second of over-revs.
As a quick bit of maths (with assumed engine speeds):
180 seconds at 7500rpm equates to 33,750 ignitions
1 second at 8500rpm is 425 ignitions.
Jim1556 said:
Thanks, everything's so much clearer now! 
There has been a fair bit on here about this recently. Here is the basic summary (Any of the actual experts - Pope, Henry, Baz - feel free to correct me if I have missed anything):996s only have 2 rev ranges I believe. 997s/987s have 6.
Rev ranges 1-3 can be reached by slamming into the rev limiter, and Porsche don't really worry about them.
Rev range 4 is a grey area and is categorised as possible engine damage - depending on the severity of the over-rev, obviously. It means that there was likely a slight/brief over-rev and Porsche will require an inspection and compression and leakage test before a warranty is issued. Despite what some will claim on here, you can warranty a rev range 4 car, and OPCs do sell rev range 4 cars (there have been several recent threads proving as much) but they will obviously have carried out the inspections they require for the warranty beforehand.
Rev ranges 5-6 are very bad news and are categorised as 'probable engine damage'.
It should be noted that there are sometimes glitches that show a car to have similar, low numbers of over-revs in 4, 5 and 6 (which isn't possible). These cars are most likely fine but I believe Porsche do still require the expensive inspection before approving a warranty on them.
From reading threads on here it is also suggested that if the over-revs occurred more than 100-200 operating hours ago and the car has been fine since, that it is most likely that no damage occurred. A car with recent over-revs is best avoided though as any potential engine damage may not have had enough time to make itself known.
Edited by ChipsAndCheese on Wednesday 21st March 11:14
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