whats the right car?
Discussion
I think I'm facing a car dilemma that other car enthusiasts must have battled with if they have been lucky enough to climb their ideal car ladder. I have owned a series of weekend cars including 4 TVR's (ending with a Griffith 500) and more recently a series of modern Porsche's (987 Boxter S, 997.1 Carrera S and 997.1 C4S Cab). My current weekend car is a 997.1 Turbo coupe which I thought would be my ultimate dream car with a mix of being a genuine supercar whilst remaining relatively affordable to run and useable. Unfortunately, it is the easily accessible performance that is raising concern. I find the manual turbo an involving car, unfortunately only at indiscrete speeds on the public road. A lovely sounding Europipe sports exhaust has improved lower speed involvement but not enough. Thoughts have turned to a 997.1 GT3 which i have not driven but receives rave reviews. What would you suggest as a car to tick the involvement box on a £50k used supercar/GT/sports car budget but will not prove painfully expensive to run and isn't too painful to drive on bumpy British roads? I really have enjoyed owning porsche's so would love to stick with the brand. Great handling and noise are critical requirements. I'd also be interested how supercar owners like Harry Metcalfe of EVO manage to enjoy epic supercars like the Zonda on the road without ending up in custody!
c4sman said:
I think I'm facing a car dilemma that other car enthusiasts must have battled with if they have been lucky enough to climb their ideal car ladder. I have owned a series of weekend cars including 4 TVR's (ending with a Griffith 500) and more recently a series of modern Porsche's (987 Boxter S, 997.1 Carrera S and 997.1 C4S Cab). My current weekend car is a 997.1 Turbo coupe which I thought would be my ultimate dream car with a mix of being a genuine supercar whilst remaining relatively affordable to run and useable. Unfortunately, it is the easily accessible performance that is raising concern. I find the manual turbo an involving car, unfortunately only at indiscrete speeds on the public road. A lovely sounding Europipe sports exhaust has improved lower speed involvement but not enough. Thoughts have turned to a 997.1 GT3 which i have not driven but receives rave reviews. What would you suggest as a car to tick the involvement box on a £50k used supercar/GT/sports car budget but will not prove painfully expensive to run and isn't too painful to drive on bumpy British roads? I really have enjoyed owning porsche's so would love to stick with the brand. Great handling and noise are critical requirements. I'd also be interested how supercar owners like Harry Metcalfe of EVO manage to enjoy epic supercars like the Zonda on the road without ending up in custody!
997 gt3 the way to go!Porkupine said:
997 gt3 the way to go!
Thanks Porkupine, I suspect it might be the way to go. But how hard do these things ride. I will probably only track it once every couple of years so road driving is the priority and I don't want to be skipping from bump to bump. Also considered a 997.2 GTS as a compromise but worried it might not excite in that supercar way!Cheers
C4sman
You've certainly touched on something there- the problem with a powerful great handeling car is that you never really get to the limits and when you do it could be a lot more serious.
It's probably a way a lot of accidents happen- the car masking the skill of the driver.
So, for involvement... I used to have great fun 4 wheel drifting and driving my old mk1 capri down a straight road. Taught me a lot about car control and so as I progressed up the power tree I felt confident with the way a car moved at the limits. The roads were quiet, there were no speed cameras, you could leave you door unlocked etc etc!
Haven't found that with the 996 yet though, and I can't see that I ever will.
My thoughts- get something terrible. Something that doesn't handle and is underpowered!
nah, not gonna happen is it!?
It's probably a way a lot of accidents happen- the car masking the skill of the driver.
So, for involvement... I used to have great fun 4 wheel drifting and driving my old mk1 capri down a straight road. Taught me a lot about car control and so as I progressed up the power tree I felt confident with the way a car moved at the limits. The roads were quiet, there were no speed cameras, you could leave you door unlocked etc etc!
Haven't found that with the 996 yet though, and I can't see that I ever will.
My thoughts- get something terrible. Something that doesn't handle and is underpowered!
nah, not gonna happen is it!?
that might have read as though I was saying 'learn to drive first'!!
Not the case! Just kinda echoing that 'involvment' for me is 'at limits of grip'.
Limits of grip in, say, a Smart, would happen at fairly low speeds!
I know, I have the answer.... a Noble M600, on 185 section tyres?
I'm probably not quite getting to the nub of this thread am I?!
Not the case! Just kinda echoing that 'involvment' for me is 'at limits of grip'.
Limits of grip in, say, a Smart, would happen at fairly low speeds!
I know, I have the answer.... a Noble M600, on 185 section tyres?
I'm probably not quite getting to the nub of this thread am I?!
ultimaybe said:
that might have read as though I was saying 'learn to drive first'!!
Not the case! Just kinda echoing that 'involvment' for me is 'at limits of grip'.
Limits of grip in, say, a Smart, would happen at fairly low speeds!
I know, I have the answer.... a Noble M600, on 185 section tyres?
I'm probably not quite getting to the nub of this thread am I?!
Don't worry, I took your first thread the right way! Absolutely understand the buy something crappy and I'll get involvement lower speed thing, but as you guessed, I just couldn't do it. BTW I have invested in 'learning how to drive' by several on road and on track driver training sessions and also climbed the performance ladder with no driver aids. Happily slung a Griffith 500 around in the wet without any car/hedge interactions;-)Not the case! Just kinda echoing that 'involvment' for me is 'at limits of grip'.
Limits of grip in, say, a Smart, would happen at fairly low speeds!
I know, I have the answer.... a Noble M600, on 185 section tyres?
I'm probably not quite getting to the nub of this thread am I?!
Herein lies the problem as stated when you have been fortunate enough to progress up the ladder to such a capable car as the 997 turbo. You end up reaching ridiculous speeds to get the kick you need from the car.
After owning a 996 turbo for a while , the buzz of that turbo kick was great , but a quick look at the speedo showed you were into crazy figures in no time . There was no drama getting there, it coped and flattered in every road condition thrown at it.
So for me it was a case of getting back to basics and I ended up in a Caterham. Ok , it's not a Porsche , but to be honest I couldn't justify splashing out on a GT3 ( which would no doubt have ticked the majority of boxes I was looking for in a car ) to get the drama I was after.
But going to just 120 bhp, wind , flies and other road debris in the face motoring shows, how in some ways we are getting too far removed from getting that buzz from a car is like without having to be travelling at warp factor speeds.
Not an answer to your dilemma I know, but big Bhp does not always make for a more satisfying drive as I think a lot of us find out eventually.
After owning a 996 turbo for a while , the buzz of that turbo kick was great , but a quick look at the speedo showed you were into crazy figures in no time . There was no drama getting there, it coped and flattered in every road condition thrown at it.
So for me it was a case of getting back to basics and I ended up in a Caterham. Ok , it's not a Porsche , but to be honest I couldn't justify splashing out on a GT3 ( which would no doubt have ticked the majority of boxes I was looking for in a car ) to get the drama I was after.
But going to just 120 bhp, wind , flies and other road debris in the face motoring shows, how in some ways we are getting too far removed from getting that buzz from a car is like without having to be travelling at warp factor speeds.
Not an answer to your dilemma I know, but big Bhp does not always make for a more satisfying drive as I think a lot of us find out eventually.
willmac said:
Herein lies the problem as stated when you have been fortunate enough to progress up the ladder to such a capable car as the 997 turbo. You end up reaching ridiculous speeds to get the kick you need from the car.
After owning a 996 turbo for a while , the buzz of that turbo kick was great , but a quick look at the speedo showed you were into crazy figures in no time . There was no drama getting there, it coped and flattered in every road condition thrown at it.
So for me it was a case of getting back to basics and I ended up in a Caterham. Ok , it's not a Porsche , but to be honest I couldn't justify splashing out on a GT3 ( which would no doubt have ticked the majority of boxes I was looking for in a car ) to get the drama I was after.
But going to just 120 bhp, wind , flies and other road debris in the face motoring shows, how in some ways we are getting too far removed from getting that buzz from a car is like without having to be travelling at warp factor speeds.
Not an answer to your dilemma I know, but big Bhp does not always make for a more satisfying drive as I think a lot of us find out eventually.
Had a go in a Caterham at a Silverstone drift day. Great fun but I barely fit to be honest and I don't think it would get used enough due to the flies in teeth bit that the wife would almost definitely have an issue with! You are absolutely right though, I love the bonkers nature of the turbo's any road condition performance but when you look at the speedo it tends to discourage you from exercising it.After owning a 996 turbo for a while , the buzz of that turbo kick was great , but a quick look at the speedo showed you were into crazy figures in no time . There was no drama getting there, it coped and flattered in every road condition thrown at it.
So for me it was a case of getting back to basics and I ended up in a Caterham. Ok , it's not a Porsche , but to be honest I couldn't justify splashing out on a GT3 ( which would no doubt have ticked the majority of boxes I was looking for in a car ) to get the drama I was after.
But going to just 120 bhp, wind , flies and other road debris in the face motoring shows, how in some ways we are getting too far removed from getting that buzz from a car is like without having to be travelling at warp factor speeds.
Not an answer to your dilemma I know, but big Bhp does not always make for a more satisfying drive as I think a lot of us find out eventually.
Complement the Turbo with an Elise (any age). You retain the awesome abilities of the turbo, but when you feel the need for a different kind of drive, the Elise will tick all sorts of 'driver involvement' boxes that you seem to be missing.
Between the two, you would have a massive range to enjoy in the motoring world. Allow the turbo to be the fast, usable point to point sports GT and the Elise for the times you want to feel connected.
Occasional exposure to the rawer car will make you re-appreciate the turbo each time you use it and vice-versa.
In fact that is close to a perfect garage in my eyes. Though a turbo and a boxster spyder may be even better.... Have you thought about that?
Between the two, you would have a massive range to enjoy in the motoring world. Allow the turbo to be the fast, usable point to point sports GT and the Elise for the times you want to feel connected.
Occasional exposure to the rawer car will make you re-appreciate the turbo each time you use it and vice-versa.
In fact that is close to a perfect garage in my eyes. Though a turbo and a boxster spyder may be even better.... Have you thought about that?
c4sman said:
I think I'm facing a car dilemma that other car enthusiasts must have battled with if they have been lucky enough to climb their ideal car ladder. I have owned a series of weekend cars including 4 TVR's (ending with a Griffith 500) and more recently a series of modern Porsche's (987 Boxter S, 997.1 Carrera S and 997.1 C4S Cab). My current weekend car is a 997.1 Turbo coupe which I thought would be my ultimate dream car with a mix of being a genuine supercar whilst remaining relatively affordable to run and useable. Unfortunately, it is the easily accessible performance that is raising concern. I find the manual turbo an involving car, unfortunately only at indiscrete speeds on the public road. A lovely sounding Europipe sports exhaust has improved lower speed involvement but not enough. Thoughts have turned to a 997.1 GT3 which i have not driven but receives rave reviews. What would you suggest as a car to tick the involvement box on a £50k used supercar/GT/sports car budget but will not prove painfully expensive to run and isn't too painful to drive on bumpy British roads? I really have enjoyed owning porsche's so would love to stick with the brand. Great handling and noise are critical requirements. I'd also be interested how supercar owners like Harry Metcalfe of EVO manage to enjoy epic supercars like the Zonda on the road without ending up in custody!
A 96 Gt3 and most certainly a 997 Gt3 are bonkers fast and both come into their element when being driven so ... the limits of the chassis, brakes, mechanical grip are massive. Sorry but they don't fit your criteria at all, especially as you seem to want a supple car that is compliant over bumps and genuinely attuned to UK roads.Therefore I have to say: 964, elise, intega type r, ford puma, MX5, caterham classic, Elan Sprint.
All of these are big on feel, feedback, intimacy, adjustability, compliance and fluidity and they are all just 'swift' rather than balls out fast which is just what you need on the road so as to force you to focus more on senstaions, interaction, input-output, momentumem, flow and carrying speed through corners.
Edited by jackal on Sunday 23 September 23:17
ClassicCarMad said:
GT2 996- With an exhaust
Surely a 996 GT2 will present the same problems as a 997T. Far to much power to safely tap into on UK roads.
That's why I decided to go for a '3, not a '2.
I didn't want unusable brute force. They are great cars but not for me, this time around.
OP, I haven't been in a 997 GT3 but by all accounts on here they are a very nice road car.
Even my MK1 Clubsport is far more comfortable than some on here would have you believe.
Eta - I hadn't read to the end when I posted. I see your thoughts are similar to mine re the GT2.
Edited by marky911 on Monday 24th September 08:32
DS240 said:
Complement the Turbo with an Elise (any age). You retain the awesome abilities of the turbo, but when you feel the need for a different kind of drive, the Elise will tick all sorts of 'driver involvement' boxes that you seem to be missing.
Between the two, you would have a massive range to enjoy in the motoring world. Allow the turbo to be the fast, usable point to point sports GT and the Elise for the times you want to feel connected.
Occasional exposure to the rawer car will make you re-appreciate the turbo each time you use it and vice-versa.
In fact that is close to a perfect garage in my eyes. Though a turbo and a boxster spyder may be even better.... Have you thought about that?
Elise or Boxter Spyder as a complement both sound great. Unfortunately I don't have the cash to run, or suitable space to store another car. We already have 3 in the household (Turbo, Merc diesel daily driver and a Golf for the other half)Between the two, you would have a massive range to enjoy in the motoring world. Allow the turbo to be the fast, usable point to point sports GT and the Elise for the times you want to feel connected.
Occasional exposure to the rawer car will make you re-appreciate the turbo each time you use it and vice-versa.
In fact that is close to a perfect garage in my eyes. Though a turbo and a boxster spyder may be even better.... Have you thought about that?
jackal said:
A 96 Gt3 and most certainly a 997 Gt3 are bonkers fast and both come into their element when being driven so ... the limits of the chassis, brakes, mechanical grip are massive. Sorry but they don't fit your criteria at all, especially as you seem to want a supple car that is compliant over bumps and genuinely attuned to UK roads.
Therefore I have to say: 964, elise, intega type r, ford puma, MX5, caterham classic, Elan Sprint.
All of these are big on feel, feedback, intimacy, adjustability, compliance and fluidity and they are all just 'swift' rather than balls out fast which is just what you need on the road so as to force you to focus more on senstaions, interaction, input-output, momentumem, flow and carrying speed through corners.
Don't get me wrong about ride comfort, I'm not looking for a limo ride,, just usability where the bumps are not the main thing slowing you down coz your airborne!Therefore I have to say: 964, elise, intega type r, ford puma, MX5, caterham classic, Elan Sprint.
All of these are big on feel, feedback, intimacy, adjustability, compliance and fluidity and they are all just 'swift' rather than balls out fast which is just what you need on the road so as to force you to focus more on senstaions, interaction, input-output, momentumem, flow and carrying speed through corners.
Edited by jackal on Sunday 23 September 23:17
All the cars you suggest are no doubt brilliant and some of them would be regarded as "special", but want something more modern with that "wow" feeling when you open the garage door. Turbo gives me that and I think the GT3 would also, but as you say, maybe the "fun" factor arrives at too high a speed even in the GT3?
Mike981 said:
If you want to stay with a Porsche, what about a 987.2 Boxster Spyder, a 987.2 Cayman S/R or a 981 Boxster S or - waiting a bit - 981 Cayman S? All very involving, fun to drive cars that later you can mod to add more HPs if you really need more.
You might be onto something with the Boxter / Cayman thing. Previously owned 987 S but went down the upgrade path but maybe it's time to do a full circle!c4sman said:
want something more modern with that "wow" feeling when you open the garage door.
Totally understand where you are coming from. But modern day, I honestly don't know if it exists.I am hoping the Toyota GT86 will spark or mark a new trend amonsgt all sports car marques but for the moment it's all about huge numbers, huge amounts of grip and insane acceleleration. Even 0-100 in over 9 secs is considered 'slow' these days, its crazy. The market is not driven by drivers and driver satisfaction but rather by leaderboard headlines and tangible symbols of status like top speed and BHP.
Perhaps the closest thing, if you count it has having any wow factor, is a boxster spyder or a new bxoster specced to the nines. I think the Exige V6 is pretty special in the right colour but all these cars are still mentally rapid IMO.
Older ferrari ? A manual F355 berlinetta with capristos ?
And no, I don't think a GT3 is good over bumps. They will put up with them but there are cars out there that are far better suited to rough uk roads. Remember that any 2wd 911 will be worse over bumps than your turbo as it has less weight over the front and more inherent instability and will jiggle around a lot more compared to its AWD counterpart.
Edited by jackal on Monday 24th September 12:24
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