964s So many Questions so little time!!
Discussion
Ok so can anyone tell me why at the moment there seem to be so many 964 RS's up for sale and some for quite some time? have they gotten to silly prices so more people are now looking at a regluar 964 c2 instead? does this mean that longer term the RS will become a museum piece and not really at current prices viable to use as a track hack or use on road for fear of adding too much mileage and affecting the price? whats a 'fair' price for a lightweight these days as a rough guide? has te mkt moved on to alternative cars now like the cheaper models??? tks in advance and sorry for so many questions!
Im not sure anybody can answer your questions with any certainty.
Maybe they have been over-priced by chancers using the recent hype in the last few years and the bubble has burst a little?
Possibly a lot of the previous buyers have moved on to GT3's? If so, this leaves the collectors and polishers.
They are special, no doubt about that, I would love one, but not at 60k+.
Given the lack of sales, the market agrees.
Maybe they have been over-priced by chancers using the recent hype in the last few years and the bubble has burst a little?
Possibly a lot of the previous buyers have moved on to GT3's? If so, this leaves the collectors and polishers.
They are special, no doubt about that, I would love one, but not at 60k+.
Given the lack of sales, the market agrees.
Strange market at the mo i would say from my bystander perspective. A couple have sold but it took a £10k drop for that midnight blue one at JZM to go. On the other hand the Rubystone one at RPM sold pretty quickly at £80k (but I believe went to HK like a lot of RHDs). They are lovely things but I agree that they could only be appealing to collector types now so need to be mint and original. I'd love one probably in LHD, but if I'm honest from the (admittedly short) couple of passenger drives I've had in one, prefer my standard C2 for the road. Lightweights I reckon add £10-£15k and NGT another £10k on top of that.
They just look sooooo right though. Hard not to attempt some futile math mans, even at these prices.... More fun than a pension (at least whilst I don't need a mobility scooter)!
Cheers
Slodge
They just look sooooo right though. Hard not to attempt some futile math mans, even at these prices.... More fun than a pension (at least whilst I don't need a mobility scooter)!
Cheers
Slodge
I know reasonably rare classic car prices have gone through the roof over the last 6 years or so. But really, when I bought my C2 964, an RS was about 8- 10K more, and I didn't think for one second of buying one. That was it. The car was just so unloved when it was new and rated poorly as a road car (unlike mu fave, the track focused 968CS .... but then I'm biased 
) that for years its value vs rarity made it a damn good buy, if not just for investment purposes. Now, as a rare 911 it makes sense, for years it seemed too track focused for many I guess.
There does seem to be a lot for sale and for a long time at the moment. This we have to be aware of; I'm old enough to easily remember the last classic car boom and bust and this ended with a whole load of iconic cars suddenly starting to sit for a long time without being sold. Not a problem for the rich who boosted the prices in the first place, then got out at the right time, but a major problem for the enthusiast who has to borrow his money (and pay it back)for the pleasure of driving their dream car.
Some argue that wont happen again with the new rich of the East, desperate for our motors. But the problem with that argument is that it only holds up whilst the rich of the East want to spend their money on cars ........ classic cars.
IMO I think prices for the RS have to have a bit of a reality check, reading that one has dropped 13K, shouts more greedy Trader (shock horror) than dip in prices necessarily.
) that for years its value vs rarity made it a damn good buy, if not just for investment purposes. Now, as a rare 911 it makes sense, for years it seemed too track focused for many I guess.There does seem to be a lot for sale and for a long time at the moment. This we have to be aware of; I'm old enough to easily remember the last classic car boom and bust and this ended with a whole load of iconic cars suddenly starting to sit for a long time without being sold. Not a problem for the rich who boosted the prices in the first place, then got out at the right time, but a major problem for the enthusiast who has to borrow his money (and pay it back)for the pleasure of driving their dream car.
Some argue that wont happen again with the new rich of the East, desperate for our motors. But the problem with that argument is that it only holds up whilst the rich of the East want to spend their money on cars ........ classic cars.
IMO I think prices for the RS have to have a bit of a reality check, reading that one has dropped 13K, shouts more greedy Trader (shock horror) than dip in prices necessarily.
Noisy, harsh riding, uncomfortable cars! Difficult to climb in and even more so to climb out of, no door actuated interior light, no rear seats. You need two hands to operate the luggage lid strut when loading the shopping at Tescos, and if the wind catches the lid it will fall, burying the catch into the back of your neck. If a yoghurt falls out of the shopping bag it can disappear into a corner of the boot where it will only be discovered once it has turned into something nasty.
No central locking, squeaky brakes, poor ground clearance and a horribly heavy steering with a turning radius of bus. A nightmare in multi storey car parks. The wheels are made of a material which is, 20 years on, way past it´s sell-by date, and corrodes quicker than a 70´s Lancia. The idle is erratic at times, and the lightweight flywheel and clutch very senitive, making the long M25 daily commuter runs in stop/go traffic tedious and smelly. The manual window winders are a pain at ticket boxes and tollgates.
The unsilenced transmission noises mean that every new passenger has to be reasured that a capital breakdown isn´t about to happen. The lack of heated rear window and heated rear mirrors means that backing out of a cul-de-sac on a cold wet day is near impossible. Turning round because of the steering lock, equally so! Limited manual seat adjustment and lack of exterior mirror actuators means teaching your daughter to drive will take hours of setting up.
Did I miss anything?
Oh yes, the fog lights don´t work!
I would suggest waiting until next summer. They are bound to come down in price once everyone realises how impractical they are. .-)
No central locking, squeaky brakes, poor ground clearance and a horribly heavy steering with a turning radius of bus. A nightmare in multi storey car parks. The wheels are made of a material which is, 20 years on, way past it´s sell-by date, and corrodes quicker than a 70´s Lancia. The idle is erratic at times, and the lightweight flywheel and clutch very senitive, making the long M25 daily commuter runs in stop/go traffic tedious and smelly. The manual window winders are a pain at ticket boxes and tollgates.
The unsilenced transmission noises mean that every new passenger has to be reasured that a capital breakdown isn´t about to happen. The lack of heated rear window and heated rear mirrors means that backing out of a cul-de-sac on a cold wet day is near impossible. Turning round because of the steering lock, equally so! Limited manual seat adjustment and lack of exterior mirror actuators means teaching your daughter to drive will take hours of setting up.
Did I miss anything?
Oh yes, the fog lights don´t work!
I would suggest waiting until next summer. They are bound to come down in price once everyone realises how impractical they are. .-)
Wild Card 911 said:
Noisy, harsh riding, uncomfortable cars! Difficult to climb in and even more so to climb out of, no door actuated interior light, no rear seats. You need two hands to operate the luggage lid strut when loading the shopping at Tescos, and if the wind catches the lid it will fall, burying the catch into the back of your neck. If a yoghurt falls out of the shopping bag it can disappear into a corner of the boot where it will only be discovered once it has turned into something nasty.
No central locking, squeaky brakes, poor ground clearance and a horribly heavy steering with a turning radius of bus. A nightmare in multi storey car parks. The wheels are made of a material which is, 20 years on, way past it´s sell-by date, and corrodes quicker than a 70´s Lancia. The idle is erratic at times, and the lightweight flywheel and clutch very senitive, making the long M25 daily commuter runs in stop/go traffic tedious and smelly. The manual window winders are a pain at ticket boxes and tollgates.
The unsilenced transmission noises mean that every new passenger has to be reasured that a capital breakdown isn´t about to happen. The lack of heated rear window and heated rear mirrors means that backing out of a cul-de-sac on a cold wet day is near impossible. Turning round because of the steering lock, equally so! Limited manual seat adjustment and lack of exterior mirror actuators means teaching your daughter to drive will take hours of setting up.
Did I miss anything?
Oh yes, the fog lights don´t work!
I would suggest waiting until next summer. They are bound to come down in price once everyone realises how impractical they are. .-)
You poor thing. Sounds horrific. Want to swap??! ;-)No central locking, squeaky brakes, poor ground clearance and a horribly heavy steering with a turning radius of bus. A nightmare in multi storey car parks. The wheels are made of a material which is, 20 years on, way past it´s sell-by date, and corrodes quicker than a 70´s Lancia. The idle is erratic at times, and the lightweight flywheel and clutch very senitive, making the long M25 daily commuter runs in stop/go traffic tedious and smelly. The manual window winders are a pain at ticket boxes and tollgates.
The unsilenced transmission noises mean that every new passenger has to be reasured that a capital breakdown isn´t about to happen. The lack of heated rear window and heated rear mirrors means that backing out of a cul-de-sac on a cold wet day is near impossible. Turning round because of the steering lock, equally so! Limited manual seat adjustment and lack of exterior mirror actuators means teaching your daughter to drive will take hours of setting up.
Did I miss anything?
Oh yes, the fog lights don´t work!
I would suggest waiting until next summer. They are bound to come down in price once everyone realises how impractical they are. .-)
Wild Card 911 said:
Noisy, harsh riding, uncomfortable cars! Difficult to climb in and even more so to climb out of, no door actuated interior light, no rear seats. You need two hands to operate the luggage lid strut when loading the shopping at Tescos, and if the wind catches the lid it will fall, burying the catch into the back of your neck. If a yoghurt falls out of the shopping bag it can disappear into a corner of the boot where it will only be discovered once it has turned into something nasty.
No central locking, squeaky brakes, poor ground clearance and a horribly heavy steering with a turning radius of bus. A nightmare in multi storey car parks. The wheels are made of a material which is, 20 years on, way past it´s sell-by date, and corrodes quicker than a 70´s Lancia. The idle is erratic at times, and the lightweight flywheel and clutch very senitive, making the long M25 daily commuter runs in stop/go traffic tedious and smelly. The manual window winders are a pain at ticket boxes and tollgates.
The unsilenced transmission noises mean that every new passenger has to be reasured that a capital breakdown isn´t about to happen. The lack of heated rear window and heated rear mirrors means that backing out of a cul-de-sac on a cold wet day is near impossible. Turning round because of the steering lock, equally so! Limited manual seat adjustment and lack of exterior mirror actuators means teaching your daughter to drive will take hours of setting up.
Did I miss anything?
Oh yes, the fog lights don´t work!
I would suggest waiting until next summer. They are bound to come down in price once everyone realises how impractical they are. .-)
Spoken like a true 964RS owner. No central locking, squeaky brakes, poor ground clearance and a horribly heavy steering with a turning radius of bus. A nightmare in multi storey car parks. The wheels are made of a material which is, 20 years on, way past it´s sell-by date, and corrodes quicker than a 70´s Lancia. The idle is erratic at times, and the lightweight flywheel and clutch very senitive, making the long M25 daily commuter runs in stop/go traffic tedious and smelly. The manual window winders are a pain at ticket boxes and tollgates.
The unsilenced transmission noises mean that every new passenger has to be reasured that a capital breakdown isn´t about to happen. The lack of heated rear window and heated rear mirrors means that backing out of a cul-de-sac on a cold wet day is near impossible. Turning round because of the steering lock, equally so! Limited manual seat adjustment and lack of exterior mirror actuators means teaching your daughter to drive will take hours of setting up.
Did I miss anything?
Oh yes, the fog lights don´t work!
I would suggest waiting until next summer. They are bound to come down in price once everyone realises how impractical they are. .-)
langdale said:
Ok so can anyone tell me why at the moment there seem to be so many 964 RS's up for sale and some for quite some time? have they gotten to silly prices so more people are now looking at a regluar 964 c2 instead? does this mean that longer term the RS will become a museum piece and not really at current prices viable to use as a track hack or use on road for fear of adding too much mileage and affecting the price? whats a 'fair' price for a lightweight these days as a rough guide? has te mkt moved on to alternative cars now like the cheaper models??? tks in advance and sorry for so many questions!
I agree, you don't see many on track or used insprinting etc. these days. It's a shame, and I am sure prices will fall as a result.
Wozy68 said:
Not quite the same car though eh
You are quite right, sir. The 2.7 has achieved a unique status in the 911´s history and cannot be directly compared to any other.However, the 964 RS has it´s own peculiar status. Porsche produced a true lightweight homologation special and then went to the trouble of making it as inconspicuous as possible. Casting the wheels in Magnesium, but using the same design and paint colour as the stock aluminium ones is just plain business madness. The casting form had to get an insert with magnesium written on it, but that was it. The non functional foglight lenses was another example of burying money in a product where no one can see ....what is actually missing. A heated rear screen without wiring and switch is truly eccentric.
The car reflects the crazy period that Porsche was going through in the late 80´s, and it´s story is unique and fascinating.
Does this mean that it will maintain it´s current value or climb even further? No-one can predict that.
Wild Card 911 said:
Casting the wheels in Magnesium, but using the same design and paint colour as the stock aluminium ones is just plain business madness.
What ? ? Why's that then ?Wild Card 911 said:
The non functional foglight lenses was another example of burying money in a product where no one can see ....what is actually missing.
Weight I suspect.Wild Card 911 said:
A lightweight heated rear screen without wiring and switch is truly eccentric
Not really, have you felt the weight of a standard C2/4 loom ?
Wild Card 911 said:
The car reflects the crazy period that Porsche was going through in the late 80´s, and it´s story is unique and fascinating.
Crazy, how so ?Slippydiff said:
£50-60K
I have a nice little C2 so makes me wonder if the price difference warrants jumping into an RS which would be an occasional drive and something potentially investable or weather the C2 covers all I'm after and my 18 ish grand is safer in that. Probably if the price difference was 20k I'd do it. Food for thought and definately a special car Also I wonder if my expectations given the hype and price difference over my C2 would actually when it came down to actually owning one make me disappointed.
Edited by bridey0 on Sunday 30th December 09:52
bridey0 said:
Also I wonder if my expectations given the hype and price difference over my C2 would actually when it came down to actually owning one make me disappointed.
I've had mine for 7+ years now. I cover around 2,500 miles in it every year. It's the ONLY car I've ever owned that I haven't got bored with or grown blasé about its performance. I feel excited when I know I'm going to drive it and every time I do it's a revelation - whether on the road or on a circuit. Despite (or maybe because of) everything listed by Wild Card 911 plus a load of other factors these cars just feel special. It never disappoints and its value doesn't bother me as I plan to never sell it.Appreciated, car ownership is personal and subjective. The above could be written by any owner about his classic Mini Cooper, pimped Corsa or out-of-the-box GT3 RS. But if you have the means to get into a 964RS, and want to own one, then going by my own experience I'd recommend it.
Edited by RSGulp on Sunday 30th December 10:33
bridey0 said:
I have a nice little C2 so makes me wonder if the price difference warrants jumping into an RS which would be an occasional drive and something potentially investable or weather the C2 covers all I'm after and my 18 ish grand is safer in that. Probably if the price difference was 20k I'd do it. Food for thought and definately a special car
Also I wonder if my expectations given the hype and price difference over my C2 would actually when it came down to actually owning one make me disappointed.
Also I wonder if my expectations given the hype and price difference over my C2 would actually when it came down to actually owning one make me disappointed.
Wild Card 911 said:
Noisy, harsh riding, uncomfortable cars! Difficult to climb in and even more so to climb out of, no door actuated interior light, no rear seats. You need two hands to operate the luggage lid strut when loading the shopping at Tescos, and if the wind catches the lid it will fall, burying the catch into the back of your neck. If a yoghurt falls out of the shopping bag it can disappear into a corner of the boot where it will only be discovered once it has turned into something nasty.
No central locking, squeaky brakes, poor ground clearance and a horribly heavy steering with a turning radius of bus. A nightmare in multi storey car parks. The wheels are made of a material which is, 20 years on, way past it´s sell-by date, and corrodes quicker than a 70´s Lancia. The idle is erratic at times, and the lightweight flywheel and clutch very senitive, making the long M25 daily commuter runs in stop/go traffic tedious and smelly. The manual window winders are a pain at ticket boxes and tollgates.
The unsilenced transmission noises mean that every new passenger has to be reasured that a capital breakdown isn´t about to happen. The lack of heated rear window and heated rear mirrors means that backing out of a cul-de-sac on a cold wet day is near impossible. Turning round because of the steering lock, equally so! Limited manual seat adjustment and lack of exterior mirror actuators means teaching your daughter to drive will take hours of setting up.
I'm currently on my fourth RS. I think you either get them or you don't. You need to be in the mood to drive them, but you also need to choose the cars useage and the roads you intend to drive it along carefully.No central locking, squeaky brakes, poor ground clearance and a horribly heavy steering with a turning radius of bus. A nightmare in multi storey car parks. The wheels are made of a material which is, 20 years on, way past it´s sell-by date, and corrodes quicker than a 70´s Lancia. The idle is erratic at times, and the lightweight flywheel and clutch very senitive, making the long M25 daily commuter runs in stop/go traffic tedious and smelly. The manual window winders are a pain at ticket boxes and tollgates.
The unsilenced transmission noises mean that every new passenger has to be reasured that a capital breakdown isn´t about to happen. The lack of heated rear window and heated rear mirrors means that backing out of a cul-de-sac on a cold wet day is near impossible. Turning round because of the steering lock, equally so! Limited manual seat adjustment and lack of exterior mirror actuators means teaching your daughter to drive will take hours of setting up.
Erics on here, had one and clearly didn't bond/enjoy it, others can see no wrong with them at all (or if they do, they accept their foibles as an intrinsic part of the cars DNA/character)
And whilst the vast majority of what WC911 has written is true, it rather misses the point. If I want to nip down to Tesco's (nee Waitrose) I wouldn't choose to use an RS. It's a lightweight drivers car, not a school run/ shopping trip car.
The steering can be heavy, but a well set up car which hasn't been lowered excessively (which a lot of cars imported from Germany were) and is running sensible caster, need not be.
The turning circle isn't an issue on roads such as these . . . .
Harsh riding ? The OE front dampers were excessively stiff. As they age, they get stiffer still. Fitting 993 RS front struts (or 993 Turbo items as the RS part numbers have been superceeded) makes a huge difference to how the cars cope with bumps and surface irregularities.
But the car as a whole is harsh riding due to the monoball top mounts and the uprated (stiffer) bushings. That's the price you pay for the increase in precision. Likewise the RS engine mounts, mean more NVH is transferred into the cabin, but the trade off is increased gearchange precision and an engine/transmission that doesn't move around as much under hard cornering.
The lightweight flywheel allows the engine to rev incredibly quickly, and makes heel and toeing far easier. I suspect that Porsche AG didn't give a lot of thought to commuters stuck in traffic jams on the M25 when they specced it.
The RS is not a practical everyday car. It's a selfish indulgence to be enjoyed on deserted, fast, smooth roads early on a Sunday morning. Then all its "foibles" make sense.
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 30th December 10:47
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