Loss of control mid corner in a 911?

[tomvcarter]

Hi,
just looking for some advice on the best way to drive a 911 on track.

I have had spent a decent amount of time on track in the car (997.1 GT3) but have had little tuition.
From what i have read, heard and experience 911's are renowned for loosing the back end if the driver lifts off the gas while in a high speed corner... is this correct?

So what im really getting at is, if you are going too fast into a corner, how can you avoid loosing control of the back end if you can't lift off the gas?... im confused...
Im off to the ring next week, and just want to make sure ive got it sorted...

Thanks Tom

[monthefish]

tomvcarter said:

Hi,
just looking for some advice on the best way to drive a 911 on track.

I have had spent a decent amount of time on track in the car (997.1 GT3) but have had little tuition.
From what i have read, heard and experience 911's are renowned for loosing the back end if the driver lifts off the gas while in a high speed corner... is this correct?

So what im really getting at is, if you are going too fast into a corner, how can you avoid loosing control of the back end if you can't lift off the gas?... im confused...
Im off to the ring next week, and just want to make sure ive got it sorted...

Thanks Tom

Basic physics are when you lift off, weight transfer puts more grip on the front and less on the rear, and if the effect is enough to lose grip entirely the back end may slide. Obviously in a 911, there's a significant extra weight that, if allowed to move, can be tricky to get back in check. The answer is to stay on the throttle (or back off gently) and control the slide, but this is much, much easier said than done. (sitting at a computer, I could catch this no bother. If I was actually in that car at that time, I don't rate my chances quite so highly )

I'd suggest that the only answer is to ensure you don't go into any corners too fast in the first place, as the ring isn't the place you want to ever be going too fast into a corner.

[Far Cough]

tomvcarter said:

So what im really getting at is, if you are going too fast into a corner, how can you avoid loosing control of the back end if you can't lift off the gas?

I think this is the crux of your post and there is no simple answer. The obvious answer is the mantra "In Slow , out fast" - especially at the Ring where runoff is not an option.

If you find yourself running too hot into a corner any action like lifting off or applying brakes is going to transfer the weight forward and lessen the grip available at the rear with the inevitable rotation of the car. Guys that race these things use this to trailbrake into the apex to rotate the car before firing it off out the corner.

The only way I can see of saving this situation is to straighten the car up and hit the brakes as hard as possible in order to get as much speed off whilst straight with neutral steering given the amount of room available. The last thing you need is the pendulum effect starting.

If there is room , then stay on the gas and spin out in relative safety.

ETA - the clip of the Red porsche in the above post is the pendulum effect I mentioned and he would have been far better just burying the throttle and spinning out rather than continuing his accident - easier said than done and with the benefit of hindsight !

Edited by Far Cough on Tuesday 26th March 12:33

[mollytherocker]

Tom

It really depends on the exact circumstances and what happens and how quick or how early you realise. The earlier you are aware, the more choices are open to you. Its dangerous for someone to give you a simple oversteer answer like 'just steer into it with the clutch in' because it depends on too many factors!

If you have really gone in too fast and have lost the backend, you are heading off the track and its time for a quick decision, dependant on were you are headed and whats there!

[Jim1556]

monthefish said:

I'd suggest that the only answer is to ensure you don't go into any corners too fast in the first place, as the ring isn't the place you want to ever be going too fast into a corner.

Exactly! I presume it's your first time at the Ring so here's some tips:

I've done 33 laps and consider myself a novice, I've overtaken GT3s and been overtaken by mk1 Golfs!

It is not a playstation, there is no reset button (see above video)!

There are no prizes other than going home in one piece with happy memories!

DO NOT time your laps, it is meaningless and encourages you to take risks!

If you can, find an experienced bloke in the car park and follow him round to get an idea of the lines!

Err on the side of caution and go 20-30% slower than you would on a twisty country road until you gain confidence in the circuit - remember there are 150+ corners, many a blind, crested, off camber and/or slippy!

It is treacherous in the wet!

Be safe, have fun, come home happy!

Oh, and try Renate's place 'The Lindenhoff' (opposite the BMW Motorsport building) or Sabine Schmitz's mom's place 'Hotel am Tiergarten' for food and beer!

[spareparts]

tomvcarter said:

if you are going too fast into a corner,

Pray.

[tomvcarter]

Jim1556 said:

Exactly! I presume it's your first time at the Ring so here's some tips:

I've done 33 laps and consider myself a novice, I've overtaken GT3s and been overtaken by mk1 Golfs!

It is not a playstation, there is no reset button (see above video)!

There are no prizes other than going home in one piece with happy memories!

DO NOT time your laps, it is meaningless and encourages you to take risks!

I'm not a "ring virgin", I have about 12 laps under my belt in n E92 M3 (and 1000s of xbox hrs), but have found the GT3 more likely to bite! As this is my first trip to the ring in a GT3, im feeling much more nervous, especially after seeing this!!!:

monthefish said:

(sitting at a computer, I could catch this no bother. If I was actually in that car at that time, I don't rate my chances quite so highly )

I guess there is no solution other than to over emphasise the "In Slow , out fast" rule.
I just thought there was a cunning trick I was missing out on to avoid it.

Jim1556 said:

Oh, and try Renate's place 'The Lindenhoff' (opposite the BMW Motorsport building) or Sabine Schmitz's mom's place 'Hotel am Tiergarten' for food and beer!

Booked in to the Tiergarten

Hope its freindly as its going to be just me, as my brother has had to pull out of the trip (cant trust anyone else to drive it!).

[jackal]

tomvcarter said:

Hi,
just looking for some advice on the best way to drive a 911 on track.

I have had spent a decent amount of time on track in the car (997.1 GT3) but have had little tuition.
From what i have read, heard and experience 911's are renowned for loosing the back end if the driver lifts off the gas while in a high speed corner... is this correct?

So what im really getting at is, if you are going too fast into a corner, how can you avoid loosing control of the back end if you can't lift off the gas?... im confused...
Im off to the ring next week, and just want to make sure ive got it sorted...

Thanks Tom

If you go in too fast does your GT3 understeer ?


My overriding comment would be that you should never go in too fast, esp on the road pr on a recreational trackday. Work up your entry speeds from a starting point that feels predictably safe adhering to the slow in fast out mantra.

If you want to really maximise entry speeds (perhaps you ate thinking of going racing ?) then there will be a whole load more to it including trailbraking up to the apex and blending back onto the throttle successfully and smoothly. Best practised at a wide open track or a don palmer type day i would have thought.

[Sifly]

Don't press the loud pedal until you 'know' you can stay on it until out of the corner!

[N24]

Perhaps a better way of dealing with cornering at the 'ring is to turn in later than you may initially feel is right - turning in early is more likely to upset the balance of the car.

[Far Cough]

tomvcarter said:

I just thought there was a cunning trick I was missing out on to avoid it.

The cunning trick is getting some seat time and learning the car and using that experience when driving it to the limit and this is what makes the proper drivers fast and the not so proper drivers crash !

Provided your car has the geo from the factory then it will naturally understeer before turning into this oversteer monster you elude too. Understeer ( to a degree ) is your friend and will allow you to learn the limits of what the car can do. Push through the understeer and then comes the oversteery bit.

I think you will be surprised at how much you can actually take the mik in a GT3 in the dry that is. The more miles you do in the driving seat the more you learn quite simply by saying to yourself - I could have done that corner much faster. Then next time you do and so on and so on.The xbox may allow you to learn where the circuit goes but counts for nothing in the realworld. I have yet to find the "reset" button on my dashboard !!

I think you will have a great time as the GT3 is truly epic round the ring. Even in the wet a very low speed , it can still be a hoot. Have fun

[Obiwonkeyblokey]

get some trackday tuition, do yourself a massive favour. Not only will it make you potentially faster, but also safer to yourself and others and you'll even enjoy it more.

I cant speak for you but for me I would st my pants if I had to go to the ring and wasnt sure about the dynamics of my very expensive toy.

[seawise]

has the snow thawed out there then ? i would have thought the weather is your biggest concern, rather than lift off oversteer.

[monthefish]

Far Cough said:

The xbox may allow you to learn where the circuit goes but counts for nothing in the realworld.

I disagree it counts for nothing in the real world; it's actually a very good way of learning where the circuit goes as it means you can use your real laps for learning the gradients/surfaces etc. I had hundreds of computer laps before I went out for real and it really helped me make the most of the time I was there.

(but yes, only an idiot would learn it on computer and think they 'knew' it)

[tomvcarter]

jackal said:

If you go in too fast does your GT3 understeer ?

It does (a little)

But i have had a couple of experiences when pushing the car to find its limits on airfield days, that in long highspeed bends i have suddenly found myself going backwards at a scary speed. Luckily there has never been anything to hit, but its put the doubt in my mind... hence the question.

[Far Cough]

monthefish said:

Far Cough said:

The xbox may allow you to learn where the circuit goes but counts for nothing in the realworld.

I disagree it counts for nothing in the real world; it's actually a very good way of learning where the circuit goes as it means you can use your real laps for learning the gradients/surfaces etc. I had hundreds of computer laps before I went out for real and it really helped me make the most of the time I was there.

(but yes, only an idiot would learn it on computer and think they 'knew' it)

I probably could have put that better. What I meant was thats all it "is" good for , showing you roughly which way it goes. Yes your sentence in brackets is exactly right.

[jackal]

tomvcarter said:

jackal said:

If you go in too fast does your GT3 understeer ?

It does (a little)

But i have had a couple of experiences when pushing the car to find its limits on airfield days, that in long highspeed bends i have suddenly found myself going backwards at a scary speed. Luckily there has never been anything to hit, but its put the doubt in my mind... hence the question.

What was it about the high speed bends that had you swapping ends ? What was your methodology ?

High speed would point more to driving style or indeed Aero. Ideally you should be totally off the throttle (and preferably on the brakes, reducing pressure profressively) right up to the apex. If you are fiddling with the throttle before the exit phase then thats when s**t happens !

Is you car standard geo, standard rake ? What about the bars ? Keep the rear nice and soft relative to the front, at least to start with until you have the experience to go stiffer at the rear. This should give you that safety net of inital understeer rather than turn in oversteer although less so in very fast corners i imagine.

Edited by jackal on Tuesday 26th March 18:24

[Jim1556]

tomvcarter said:

I'm not a "ring virgin", I have about 12 laps under my belt in n E92 M3 (and 1000s of xbox hrs), but have found the GT3 more likely to bite! As this is my first trip to the ring in a GT3, im feeling much more nervous, especially after seeing this!!!

Fair enough, wasn't trying to be condescending, just offering advice - it still stands to 'Ring Virgins' though

I'd much rather meet people like you there (with respect for the place and the car) than the young lads in their Clios saying 'Bloody hell, it's nothing like the Playstation!' then because the track is shut for an accident half an hour later, they roll it on the public road going down to Adenau... (July 2011).

Have a great time though, and watch the locals in their mk1 Golfs - lunatics!

Edited by Jim1556 on Tuesday 26th March 18:22

[Steve Rance]

The hardest part of driving a 911 is making an apex. Once you've got there, the rest is easy. You should not have any oversteer problems on exit unless you make a fundamental error. If you've gone in too quick and don't know what you are doing, you will understeer off of the apex.

[terryb]

I would get the geometry checked on your GT3 if you haven't previously. Whilst mine is far from standard, it is amazingly easy to drive fast, lift off mid corner, brake mid bend, etc. amazingly well set up and confidence inspiring.