918 Porsche status
Discussion
I am always one to wish Porsche success, but as CGT owner I've not been tempted by the 918. Technical marvel yes, but very unlikely to better the CGT for visceral driving enjoyment.
I agree with the point re the LaFerrari and McLaren P1 stealing the 918s thunder here.
That said, I'd be very surprised if the car was pulled - almost all of the development cost must have been spent (sunk cost), so perhaps it may end up as a shorter production run (as happened with the CGT - 1,500 became 1,270)?
Cheers
I agree with the point re the LaFerrari and McLaren P1 stealing the 918s thunder here.
That said, I'd be very surprised if the car was pulled - almost all of the development cost must have been spent (sunk cost), so perhaps it may end up as a shorter production run (as happened with the CGT - 1,500 became 1,270)?
Cheers
stefan1 said:
I am always one to wish Porsche success, but as CGT owner I've not been tempted by the 918. Technical marvel yes, but very unlikely to better the CGT for visceral driving enjoyment.
I agree with the point re the LaFerrari and McLaren P1 stealing the 918s thunder here.
That said, I'd be very surprised if the car was pulled - almost all of the development cost must have been spent (sunk cost), so perhaps it may end up as a shorter production run (as happened with the CGT - 1,500 became 1,270)?
Not the first time I have heard this. I have a mate here in Canada who has a CGT and had a deposit down very early for the 918. Pulled out when he saw the weight.
Cheers
I agree with the point re the LaFerrari and McLaren P1 stealing the 918s thunder here.
That said, I'd be very surprised if the car was pulled - almost all of the development cost must have been spent (sunk cost), so perhaps it may end up as a shorter production run (as happened with the CGT - 1,500 became 1,270)?
Not the first time I have heard this. I have a mate here in Canada who has a CGT and had a deposit down very early for the 918. Pulled out when he saw the weight.
Cheers
It's not really fair to say the 918 has been the victim of some nasty plot by Ferrari and McLaren. The LF and P1 have been in development for some years too.
The fact is that whilst I have nothing but respect for Porsches' engineering nouse the 3 have gone head to head and Porsche look a very poor third right now.
They're asking a lot of money for a car that features less power, more weight and less stellar technology than their rivals.They also propose building many more cars making thme much less exclusive.
Not surprising that selling them is proving tricky.
The fact is that whilst I have nothing but respect for Porsches' engineering nouse the 3 have gone head to head and Porsche look a very poor third right now.
They're asking a lot of money for a car that features less power, more weight and less stellar technology than their rivals.They also propose building many more cars making thme much less exclusive.
Not surprising that selling them is proving tricky.
Mind you, it was a bit similar with the CGT, when it came out I felt it needed an RS version with stupid amounts of power, not because the car actually needs it, but because in the world of willy waving it cant do any harm surely?
The same could be true of the 918, I'm sure the car is set up to deal with it's power superbly, but strap on some big turbos, make 1200bhp and let the crazy rich folk choose which they want
The same could be true of the 918, I'm sure the car is set up to deal with it's power superbly, but strap on some big turbos, make 1200bhp and let the crazy rich folk choose which they want
It's a well known rumor amongst the big boy Porsche collectors close to the factory that 18 months after the 918, Porsche were planning to releasing an extreme version minus the hybrid s
t and weighing..... get this....700kg less!!!
I've heard it from a few different sources now and given the figures from the P1 and LF, I reckon it's going to be NECESSARY and may become the base car.
Who knows?
t and weighing..... get this....700kg less!!!I've heard it from a few different sources now and given the figures from the P1 and LF, I reckon it's going to be NECESSARY and may become the base car.
Who knows?
Conian said:
Mind you, it was a bit similar with the CGT, when it came out I felt it needed an RS version with stupid amounts of power, not because the car actually needs it, but because in the world of willy waving it cant do any harm surely?
The same could be true of the 918, I'm sure the car is set up to deal with it's power superbly, but strap on some big turbos, make 1200bhp and let the crazy rich folk choose which they want
Well yes, you are of course right but the rivals are about loads more than headline figures. There's a degree of genuine F1 tech in terms of materials and aero that Porsche doesn't seem quite as able to throw into the ring this time.The same could be true of the 918, I'm sure the car is set up to deal with it's power superbly, but strap on some big turbos, make 1200bhp and let the crazy rich folk choose which they want
The Carrera GT vs Enzo comparison is worth looking at but the CGT had very competitive figures with the Enzo and similar levels of tech for a fair bit less money and it has done OK in the end considering there are 3 times as many cars as the Enzo. But they dropped about 50% at one time from new which the Ferrari never did.
Now they are trading at not far off new price but that's miles behind the Ferrari in relative terms.
Now McLaren and Ferrari are looking for the same buyer and the Porsche are being squeezed by them both.
Murcielago_Boy said:
It's a well known rumor amongst the big boy Porsche collectors close to the factory that 18 months after the 918, Porsche were planning to releasing an extreme version minus the hybrid st and weighing..... get this....700kg less!!!
I've heard it from a few different sources now and given the figures from the P1 and LF, I reckon it's going to be NECESSARY and may become the base car.
Who knows?
That would be an interesting step to say the least.t and weighing..... get this....700kg less!!!I've heard it from a few different sources now and given the figures from the P1 and LF, I reckon it's going to be NECESSARY and may become the base car.
Who knows?
The hybrid stuff in the 918 creates two issues as I see it.
1) The weight is circa 300kg more than the CGT (which was 1,380kg)
2) The packaging means the car no longer has inbound suspension (as per the CGT).
Dropping the hybrid stuff solves #1 but without re-engineering not #2.
And then you are left with an engine that without forced induction won't be as strong as the V10 in the GT.
That said, if they can get down to 1,100kg with 550hp from the V8, that would still be super special.
Dblue said:
the 3 have gone head to head and Porsche look a very poor third right now.
I dont agree, the 991 GT3 is what, almost half the cost of the 458 and 30% cheaper than the Mclaren, which one of those is the engineering marvel? Id say its even stevens if not the 991. Which is better value?Tell me Im wrong but I dont think Porsche are third in regards to current engineering capability, just aiming for a different market. The 918 is a lovely looking thing, but I just dont get it, I dont get who they are aiming it at, as a proper petrol head, I couldnt give two hoots about hybrid technology. Its heavy, expensive and untested in terms of life, and I dont mean racing hours, I mean proper durability in everyday terms.
Fisker is the writing on the wall.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The CF in the Ferrari especially is ahead of the 918 (and to an extent the P1) and very much based on the experience both have in racing.The real advantages seem to be in aerodynamics. The active aero on both the Ferrari and in particular the P1 are properly advanced stuff. This is assuming the claims stack up from what are pre-production cars as of now.(600kg of downforce in the P1 is remarkable)
You can with some justification say that road car production bears little relation to how a F1 team operates but the cars "seem" to reflect their makers reputations and in both cases they appear to be rather more ambitious/advanced/special than the Porsche.
I'm not sure that in the past few years whilst these cars were being developed that Porsche have quite had the state of the art cross-over expertise in some areas that both Ferrari and Mclaren have clearly brought to the party.
All irrelevant to us mere mortals and it's not that relevant to the millionaires who are buying these toys either.
stefan1 said:
That would be an interesting step to say the least.
The hybrid stuff in the 918 creates two issues as I see it.
1) The weight is circa 300kg more than the CGT (which was 1,380kg)
2) The packaging means the car no longer has inbound suspension (as per the CGT).
Dropping the hybrid stuff solves #1 but without re-engineering not #2.
And then you are left with an engine that without forced induction won't be as strong as the V10 in the GT.
That said, if they can get down to 1,100kg with 550hp from the V8, that would still be super special.
Was chatting to a chap getting the UK's first LaF. He's got a LOT of cars, and he was saying that this hybrid stuff creates such a problem with packaging that the underbody aero has to be compromised too. Then there's cooling issues and transmission issues blah blah blah.The hybrid stuff in the 918 creates two issues as I see it.
1) The weight is circa 300kg more than the CGT (which was 1,380kg)
2) The packaging means the car no longer has inbound suspension (as per the CGT).
Dropping the hybrid stuff solves #1 but without re-engineering not #2.
And then you are left with an engine that without forced induction won't be as strong as the V10 in the GT.
That said, if they can get down to 1,100kg with 550hp from the V8, that would still be super special.
It's not just weight, this politically correct way of building totally un-PC cars gives a load of headaches..
VonSenger said:
Dblue said:
the 3 have gone head to head and Porsche look a very poor third right now.
I dont agree, the 991 GT3 is what, almost half the cost of the 458 and 30% cheaper than the Mclaren, which one of those is the engineering marvel? Id say its even stevens if not the 991. Which is better value?Tell me Im wrong but I dont think Porsche are third in regards to current engineering capability, just aiming for a different market. The 918 is a lovely looking thing, but I just dont get it, I dont get who they are aiming it at, as a proper petrol head, I couldnt give two hoots about hybrid technology. Its heavy, expensive and untested in terms of life, and I dont mean racing hours, I mean proper durability in everyday terms.
Fisker is the writing on the wall.
I was talking about the 918 vis-a-vis its direct rivals which is what this thread is about. It's nothing to do with whether the 991 is better/worse than a 458.
I think the battle between the 3 at the very top end that is the P1/LaF/918 battle is suggesting Porsche do not quite have the same engineering know how right now.
Dblue said:
OK I'll tell you you your wrong.;)
I was talking about the 918 vis-a-vis its direct rivals which is what this thread is about. It's nothing to do with whether the 991 is better/worse than a 458.
I think the battle between the 3 at the very top end that is the P1/LaF/918 battle is suggesting Porsche do not quite have the same engineering know how right now.
Doesn't matter what package its in, head to head they are on par I was talking about the 918 vis-a-vis its direct rivals which is what this thread is about. It's nothing to do with whether the 991 is better/worse than a 458.
I think the battle between the 3 at the very top end that is the P1/LaF/918 battle is suggesting Porsche do not quite have the same engineering know how right now.
I'll give you an example, was apple ahead of the technology curve when the iPad was fully fledged and Samsung only had the galaxy on release? I'll answer that for you, no. They were on par but Samsung only delivered the tablet when they knew there was a market.
Do Porsche see a hyper hybrid market? That's the question, not engineering capability.
VonSenger said:
Dblue said:
OK I'll tell you you your wrong.;)
I was talking about the 918 vis-a-vis its direct rivals which is what this thread is about. It's nothing to do with whether the 991 is better/worse than a 458.
I think the battle between the 3 at the very top end that is the P1/LaF/918 battle is suggesting Porsche do not quite have the same engineering know how right now.
Doesn't matter what package its in, head to head they are on par I was talking about the 918 vis-a-vis its direct rivals which is what this thread is about. It's nothing to do with whether the 991 is better/worse than a 458.
I think the battle between the 3 at the very top end that is the P1/LaF/918 battle is suggesting Porsche do not quite have the same engineering know how right now.
I'll give you an example, was apple ahead of the technology curve when the iPad was fully fledged and Samsung only had the galaxy on release? I'll answer that for you, no. They were on par but Samsung only delivered the tablet when they knew there was a market.
Do Porsche see a hyper hybrid market? That's the question, not engineering capability.
These are halo cars for the brand and there is more than economics at stake. Porsche have elected to fund and develop a state of the art hyper car with their best engineering thrown at it and an ambitious selling price.
They knew Ferrari and McLaren were doing a similar thing and it would appear they have come up rather short.
If the 918 cost £400k like a 599GTO or was a) lighter b) more powerful or c) featured game changing aero/construction/engine technology then it would be walking out the showroom..........
But it doesn't
For technology 1st P1, then LaFerrari, 918 last
For weight 1st LaFerrari, then P1, 918 last by at least an extra 300kg
For performance, probably P1, then LaFerrari, 918 last
For price, 1st 918, LaFerrari and P1 last
For exclusivity, 1st LaFerrari, then P1 and 918 last
For road racing provenance, 1st 918, then LaFerrari, P1 last
Not suprising there is not much interest, Porsche have designed a super car nearly 50% heavier and with 6% less power (ok, 30% more power some of the time) than the 20yr old McLaren F1.
Now if they turn it into a 580bhp, 1000kg super car, that can only be good.
Not trying to present a biased view as there is a little bit of all the manufacturers ingrained in my soul
For weight 1st LaFerrari, then P1, 918 last by at least an extra 300kg
For performance, probably P1, then LaFerrari, 918 last
For price, 1st 918, LaFerrari and P1 last
For exclusivity, 1st LaFerrari, then P1 and 918 last
For road racing provenance, 1st 918, then LaFerrari, P1 last
Not suprising there is not much interest, Porsche have designed a super car nearly 50% heavier and with 6% less power (ok, 30% more power some of the time) than the 20yr old McLaren F1.
Now if they turn it into a 580bhp, 1000kg super car, that can only be good.
Not trying to present a biased view as there is a little bit of all the manufacturers ingrained in my soul
Edited by marine boy on Thursday 11th April 23:54
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