Standard SC/3.2 on Track
Discussion
I have been a little hesitant at jumping into a 911 as I am not really sure if it will be the car for me and hoping those of you who have spent more time living with one are able to enlighten me..
I love my cars "hardcore" e.g. without power steering etc and do like the sense of occassion of a "racing car on the road". I do approximately 2 track days a year in any car and if I were to jump into a standard air cooled, would it satisfy, particularly on the track? Whilst I think I am more the GT3/RS buyer, budget is in the £15-£20k mark.
I understand you can strip, cage, add LSDs etc but is a bog standard car going to be any good or will it be a bit of a boat? I did see the racecar 911V sold a few months ago which maybe an option.
I currently drive an Elise S1 160, Caterham Superlight and an Integra DC2 and if I were to jump into Porsche ownership, it would replace the Lotus and Honda. Any thoughts?
I love my cars "hardcore" e.g. without power steering etc and do like the sense of occassion of a "racing car on the road". I do approximately 2 track days a year in any car and if I were to jump into a standard air cooled, would it satisfy, particularly on the track? Whilst I think I am more the GT3/RS buyer, budget is in the £15-£20k mark.
I understand you can strip, cage, add LSDs etc but is a bog standard car going to be any good or will it be a bit of a boat? I did see the racecar 911V sold a few months ago which maybe an option.
I currently drive an Elise S1 160, Caterham Superlight and an Integra DC2 and if I were to jump into Porsche ownership, it would replace the Lotus and Honda. Any thoughts?
I say do-it, they are fun from standard to modified and a lot of cars are sold with some go faster bits already fitted. As you have probably already read rust is the killer so make sure you check or get checked any car you might be interested in. My car has ended up a little more track focused than when it left the factory but its been done over a number of years and has been a fun mission. Heres a vid from Curborough a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aJR0KOYTvc
If you havent already get yourself over to impactbumpers.com which is a bit more focused on that era of car than here
If you havent already get yourself over to impactbumpers.com which is a bit more focused on that era of car than here
Well all varieties of 911s have been raced for decades; they're compact, strong, fairly light, have good brakes and dry sumps. You'd have to learn new techniques to manage their arse endedness, but that's part of the fun, right?
On the downside, the SC/3.2s are 25-35 years old, and suffer from a lot of the usual old car problems - the main one is corrosion. And every old racer I've seen is a bit of a slag and usually a bitsa. They're all the same but all different, so values are difficult to fix on.
Me, I'd be looking at a 968 that had already had all the prep done. Half the budget, arguably a better chassis, and you can spend your days hunting down GT3s.
SS7
On the downside, the SC/3.2s are 25-35 years old, and suffer from a lot of the usual old car problems - the main one is corrosion. And every old racer I've seen is a bit of a slag and usually a bitsa. They're all the same but all different, so values are difficult to fix on.
Me, I'd be looking at a 968 that had already had all the prep done. Half the budget, arguably a better chassis, and you can spend your days hunting down GT3s.
SS7
SidewaysSi said:
I do approximately 2 track days a year in any car and if I were to jump into a standard air cooled, would it satisfy, particularly on the track? Whilst I think I am more the GT3/RS buyer, budget is in the £15-£20k mark.
I understand you can strip, cage, add LSDs etc but is a bog standard car going to be any good or will it be a bit of a boat? I did see the racecar 911V sold a few months ago which maybe an option.
I currently drive an Elise S1 160, Caterham Superlight and an Integra DC2 and if I were to jump into Porsche ownership, it would replace the Lotus and Honda. Any thoughts?
If you're only doing 2 trackdays a year, any Porsche will be fine, and I suspect you won't be pushing the car that hard. Many GT3/RS cars are driven on track many many multiples of that each year.I understand you can strip, cage, add LSDs etc but is a bog standard car going to be any good or will it be a bit of a boat? I did see the racecar 911V sold a few months ago which maybe an option.
I currently drive an Elise S1 160, Caterham Superlight and an Integra DC2 and if I were to jump into Porsche ownership, it would replace the Lotus and Honda. Any thoughts?
I wouldn't swap my now track focussed 964 for anything but just be aware that once you've spent your £15K to £20K on the base car and then start the process of modifying it for track, that you can spend a total in 3 years that would have been enough to buy a 996GT3 in the first place.
Overall, you can't beat old pork on circuit. I have owned / raced GT3 roadcars, Cup racecars, a 993 race car and an SC race car (road legal) and I would say that of the two latter which you can get for under or around 20k, the 993 is more raw like a GT3 on track, with quicker throttle and steering responses, more noise etc. whereas the SC is more agricultural with a slightly frustrating gearbox but in a strange way more satisfying and actually more chuckable. In the 993, if you understeer on the entry or oversteer on exit you know instantly that you are losing time whereas in the SC, a bit of provocation feels like the quickest way round. They are all quite sensitive to setup and the 993 is massively quicker so horses for courses.
Thanks all - whilst I believe a standard car can be made more track suitable with some choice options, this does seem like an expensive way of doing things. However, whilst I only do a couple of trackdays a year, I do want steering feel and a proper no compromise driver's car.
I purchased my Elise last year and preferred it to the 968 as it had better steering, was quicker and generally far more exciting to drive. Whilst I did drive a 911 at the time, it was for a 30 minute test drive. I am sure after learning and owning the car, it may get under my skin more than it did? Is a 993/964 likely to much better or are they predominantly road cars that may prove somewhat disappointing in comparison?
I purchased my Elise last year and preferred it to the 968 as it had better steering, was quicker and generally far more exciting to drive. Whilst I did drive a 911 at the time, it was for a 30 minute test drive. I am sure after learning and owning the car, it may get under my skin more than it did? Is a 993/964 likely to much better or are they predominantly road cars that may prove somewhat disappointing in comparison?
SidewaysSi said:
Is a 993/964 likely to much better or are they predominantly road cars that may prove somewhat disappointing in comparison?
Lots of 964s have now been transformed in to very track focused cars. Yes, a standard one is a 'road car' but you have to remember that Porsche then made the 964RS which is definitely a 'track car'. Therefore, transforming a 964C2 into something that has similar performance to a 964RS is a case of removing weight, changing the suspension and geometry, adding an LSD, changing the clutch and flywheel and upgrading the brakes. You can't say the same about transforming a 996C2 into a 996GT3. However, as I mentioned above, starting with a stock car and doing all this yourself gets very expensive. I've done it bit by bit which makes it less painless but I've also had the benefit of seeing what each change makes (I've not finished yet!). it *can* make more financial sense to buy something that has already been done.The good thing about a 964 now (compared to a few years ago) is that you could buy a standard one, try it out on track as it is and if you didn't like it, sell it and get your money back. The bad thing about them now, is that there are not a lot of C2 coupes for sale at any one time.
I did my first ever trackday in a stock 3.2 , spun it twice and had a hoot , its been a slippery slope since then ...
The other week at Brands ..
http://youtu.be/WQZ4KgL0KcY
The other week at Brands ..
http://youtu.be/WQZ4KgL0KcY
The only option is to drive a few variants.
With a similar agenda, I went the 964 route. A decent base car plus £1500 for KWv1s (fitted). Job done. It won't handle like an Elise (no 911 will) but it will give you the "drivers car" feeling you are after I suspect.
Any 20 year old+ 911 on original or tired suspension is going to feel all wrong to you.
With a similar agenda, I went the 964 route. A decent base car plus £1500 for KWv1s (fitted). Job done. It won't handle like an Elise (no 911 will) but it will give you the "drivers car" feeling you are after I suspect.
Any 20 year old+ 911 on original or tired suspension is going to feel all wrong to you.
I thought a decent track spec on a torsion bar car would be no more than Bilsteins, turbo track rods and an LSD? What I am asking is, is there a potential question around how far you have to go from a fairly standard car to make it a good track car, as I always had the impression that the SC/3.2 were the easiest to get to a good track spec? Just a thought.
Excellent choice in my opinion. They are sensitive to a good geometry set up. Fresh dampers and torsion bars and I think you'll find they can punch well above their weight. SC/3.2's are the last of the pure 911's. Fantastic feed back through the wheel and the chassis. 964 and 993 in standard form are great cars but they do not possess the analogue feel of an impact bumper car. They are a little softer and heavier.
A freshly bushed and well adjusted 915 gearbox is still a joy to use but the later G50 gearbox is a little more precise. You need to go drive a good one. Not a dog or a tired example. I guess you will either love it or hate it but be warned if you love it you will become addicted.
A freshly bushed and well adjusted 915 gearbox is still a joy to use but the later G50 gearbox is a little more precise. You need to go drive a good one. Not a dog or a tired example. I guess you will either love it or hate it but be warned if you love it you will become addicted.
I think if you have proper track cars, as you have I'd leave the 3.2 as original as you can to be honest so you get to enjoy the car for what it is.
As others have said the suspension must be up to the job and if you need to renew then maybe put something a bit better on then great, but make sure it is done by someone who really knows the cars and can get the most out of it, otherwise just stick with the standard new bits.
The steering is 'feelsome' on these older cars, though its nothing like your lotus or Caterham
As others have said the suspension must be up to the job and if you need to renew then maybe put something a bit better on then great, but make sure it is done by someone who really knows the cars and can get the most out of it, otherwise just stick with the standard new bits.
The steering is 'feelsome' on these older cars, though its nothing like your lotus or Caterham
james S said:
I think if you have proper track cars, as you have I'd leave the 3.2 as original as you can to be honest so you get to enjoy the car for what it is.
As others have said the suspension must be up to the job and if you need to renew then maybe put something a bit better on then great, but make sure it is done by someone who really knows the cars and can get the most out of it, otherwise just stick with the standard new bits.
The steering is 'feelsome' on these older cars, though its nothing like your lotus or Caterham
Agree - best buy, IMO, would be a really nice, original, G50 3.2 Coupe. The best examples are getting very desirable.As others have said the suspension must be up to the job and if you need to renew then maybe put something a bit better on then great, but make sure it is done by someone who really knows the cars and can get the most out of it, otherwise just stick with the standard new bits.
The steering is 'feelsome' on these older cars, though its nothing like your lotus or Caterham
One trick for track days is to fit 15" wheels with low profile, track compatible tyres. It's a cheap way to lower the car and improve the gearing (and save your road tyres).
Thanks all. I did test drive a standard SC and a track prepped SC last year as well as en Elise R, 968 and E46 M3 before going for my current Elise. TBH I found the 911s a bit agricultural, not that fast and the possibility of big bills scared me! In particular potential body repairs as this will be used year round, including in salty and wet conditions.
Unfortunately you don't get a real feel for a car in 30 mins like you would do living with one day to day and given prices seem to be increasing, I don't want to miss my opportunity to try such a car before they become out of reach. However if they are actually much less driver focussed than the Lotus, I won't worry too much and will make a few upgrades to the Elise instead. I am after a keeper and something that may still be with me in 20 years' time. Though may look very different to what it is today..
Unfortunately you don't get a real feel for a car in 30 mins like you would do living with one day to day and given prices seem to be increasing, I don't want to miss my opportunity to try such a car before they become out of reach. However if they are actually much less driver focussed than the Lotus, I won't worry too much and will make a few upgrades to the Elise instead. I am after a keeper and something that may still be with me in 20 years' time. Though may look very different to what it is today..
Edited by SidewaysSi on Thursday 11th July 09:29
Edited by SidewaysSi on Thursday 11th July 09:33
drmark said:
I used to track a 996 GT3 on KWv3, R888s, cup links and motorsport diff - but now have this. And I love it. Just get a good one - tired examples will be nothing like as nice to drive.
Mark, that looks lovely! I would be interested to know how they compare and why you changed. Personally I don't care about speed, lap times etc but pure fun and involvement and whether what I am driving puts a smile on my face at all speeds. Nothing more frustrating than a car which only feels alive at licence losing speeds.SidewaysSi said:
Mark, that looks lovely! I would be interested to know how they compare and why you changed. Personally I don't care about speed, lap times etc but pure fun and involvement and whether what I am driving puts a smile on my face at all speeds. Nothing more frustrating than a car which only feels alive at licence losing speeds.
drmark got sucked in when he bought his 2.2S. A beautiful car. The key is in your question. These cars are about being able to have fun in at sensible speed. After selling my last 911 (air cooled) I thought long and hard about what I wanted from my next 911. I wanted something that I could have fun in at sensible speed. That I could race when I chose to or track day if I fancied. I prefer the turbo body work so I bought a 3.2 Carrera Super Sport. To a degree with every advent of 911 they became quicker and better at masking the speed that they can carry. Just look at the performance of the forthcoming 991GT3. The 3.2 is the last of the 911's that adhere to the original concept of making the greatest sports car in the world. The non power steering loads through fast corners. The brakes are not overly assisted and you have no abs to help you out. You don't feel any rubbery movement in the rear end that you get in the standard 964 or 993 suspension.
They for me are incredibly tactile machines. A 3.2 does not have the revvy engine of the SC. But has more torque and a linear power curve. A 2.4S and 2.7RS has more torque than a 2.2S but the quickest spinning engine of the lot is the 2.2S. Less reciprocating mass. With prices still only going one way I'd say you can't loose. I sort of did this when I bought my first Harley. Having decided that buying a ZXR1000 (a good few years ago) was going to get me killed I bought a 2nd hand Harley that was probably £1500 less than it was worth. Well if I did not gell with it at least I could get out of it without loosing any money. That big V twin made me grin at even 30mph.
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