Jackal - 993/GT3 comparison thread - disappeared
Discussion
Having just done 4k miles round Europe in the GT3 and around 3500 miles around the alps/scotland last year in my 993 I can probe this one with a bit more insight. Here's what I wrote on my website about my recent trip:
Its been a fascinating and very intense way of getting to know the GT3. The Mk1 is certainly not without criticism though. Like all the GT cars of old, it's a weapon that will shine very very brightly for certain tasks but then less so for others. Comparing it back honestly to my road trips last year in my 993 (which should be stressed is as least as focused as a 993RS, if not a little more so and very different from a standard 993) I have to concede that the 993 was fun to drive MORE of the time. It's limits and outright capability are lower so it entertains at lower speeds in any given scenario, it's slower so demands to be worked more at any given pace, it has a lot of low speed chatter and soundtrack, lots of popping and crackling on the overrun and generally just a ton of character and old school mechanical charm. All of its controls are also that little bit more delightful with a little more weight and substance. The steering in the 993 is cause for specific comment as its quite a lot heavier and more of a connected feel and the RS gearshift is slicker but more mechanical and falls to hand beautifully.
Ok, so the 996 GT3 is right up there for feel and feedback especially when compared to its peers and more modern cars, but you don't quite savour the machine-like feel of everything in the same way you do my 993. Whereas the 993 has a high dose of quirky charm, the Gt3 feels more clinical, teutonic and almost sexless, like more of an no-frills means to and end, fashioned in the most unpretentious, unflamboyant way possible. I'll surmise that by postulating that once you become a lover of the agricultural mechanical nature of the aircooled cars it's perhaps a very difficult thing to live up to in other vehicles.
I also discovered in Europe that the Mk1 GT3 also has a slightly lazy quality about it. The gearing is very long, it takes a while to wind up the engine with little punch low down and if you are a little bit tired and lacking in mental commitment then it's a car that can take on a slightly cumbersome, languid character. On the motorway it needs more concentration than most other cars. In fact it's a car that needs concentration most of the time and doesn't really do anything by itself. I found this made the trip more tiring than I anticipated, even after allowing for the bigger mileages. Truth be told, in an ideal world the Mk1 GT3 needs a bit more power to better match the excellence of the chassis and this is coming from someone who is a complete non-straight line junkie and has rarely ever wished for more power in any car. Whereas the 993 never feels like it really needs more oomph, the more modern chassis and sheer ability of the GT3 comfortably contains the straight line performance on offer and on occasion you find yourself wishing for another 50bhp or so more and another 500rpm to make it feel a little bit more alive and vivid.
The other big difference between the two models is that there is a lot more actual car there in the GT3, a thicker dash, thicker doors, longer wheelbase and more sense of 'stuff' whereas when you sit behind the wheel of the 993 all you are aware of is a tiny dainty windscreen frame, a skinny little dash and very little in the way of actual 'car'. In this way the aircooled 911 reminds me more of the caterham or elise experience with its stubbier wheelbase, more sense of intimacy, cruder dynamics and lower speed fun.
Having said all that though, the bottom line is that the GT3 is dynamically superior in every single way. The moment you get into it you know that its ability is of a completely different order. The bigger footprint, greater rigidity, longer wheelbase, it feels like it came from a whole different epoch. And once you press on you realise that it stops, goes, steers way better than the 993. It is far more precise, more accurate, more delicate, far far stiffer, better wheel control, is cleaner and purer in its response, is more settled and adept in a corner, has more mechanical grip through all phases of a bend and just feels like it was made a whole decade later rather than just 3 years. Not only is it a much better car but when you get the right road you find that it is more rewarding too. Because it's more precise, more instrument like and not ham fisted in any way like a 993 can sometimes be, it requires you to be the same. It praises methodical, measured, technical driving. When you do everything correctly, in sequence, in perfect time, with not one unecessary or false input, you then achieve a feeling of control, a sense of man machine relatedness that is comfortably beyond anything a 993 can serve up. The more like a circuit the road is, the more the GT3 comes alive and makes sense and this is the way it reveals to you the its ultimate DNA. I am not sure I could say the same for the 997 generation as i've not spent enough time in them but the 996 mk1 is unashamedly a circuit car at its core. When you sample this and jump from car to car, it makes the 993 feel crude, old, clumsy, treacley in the steering department and very very heavy footed.
No doubt about it, on that right road, when the GT3 hits its element and you make it live out what it is, you forgive it for the other times when it's perhaps not quite as engaging, too capable or a little taxing. It also has to be said that if out and out pace if your thing, then point to point it is monumentally rapid and the feeling of the GT3 settling beautifully then digging in, its rear outside shoulder purposefully squatting down, with your body supported and connected to the whole bodyshell by the buckets, is surely one of motorings all time great sensations. I'll also add that the GT3 surprised me on some of the tighter sections and the rougher tarmac. Badly worn roads didn't affect it nearly as much as I would have imagined and it tends to just thunder over poor surfaces once up to speed. It is deceptively nimble as well through the sharp stuff. The A1604 in the Pyrenees proved that beyond any doubt.
If I took the GT3 on a trip like this again though, I would certainly try and keep the daily miles to something a little lower that 400 a day. I would also fit a sportscat or bypass pipes, something to give it a bit more sonic character. The final thing I'd consider is a single mass flywheel just to give the drivetrain that extra sense of urgency and freedom. As much as I've always loved the 996RS, I am glad that my car has the spring rates and road manners that it does though. For long trips like this I am not sure I'd want it any more stiffer or focused.
So who wins, which is best ? Well clearly the GT3 is the better car but the 993 scores back in equal measure with its charm, character, the bespoke 'hewn from granite' fashion of its construction, and that timeless sense of being a classic. One blip from the throttle and one clunk of the drivers door shutting and you know that it has something that the 996 is totally devoid of.
Which would I choose if I could only have one ? Well that's a very very difficult question. Whilst I am more emotionally attached to the 993 and its vintage beauty stirs me more too, the GT3 is just so much more accomplished. I suspect the best answer is to say that the one i'd pick is the one i'd been driving the most prior to having to make that decision. When I get into the GT3 after the 993 it feels too modern, too cold and aloof and too big as well. When I get into the 993 after enjoying the GT3 it feels leaden footed, clumsily suspended, very bendy in the chassis department and just a bit ancient. Let's just say that I don't see either of them leaving my ownership any time soon. They are both rear engined 911's full of feel feedback and aliveness, they both key into the road in a way far more interesting than just about 99.9% of other cars, they both make the driver a central part of the equation and when you're on it, they are both utterly magical.
Its been a fascinating and very intense way of getting to know the GT3. The Mk1 is certainly not without criticism though. Like all the GT cars of old, it's a weapon that will shine very very brightly for certain tasks but then less so for others. Comparing it back honestly to my road trips last year in my 993 (which should be stressed is as least as focused as a 993RS, if not a little more so and very different from a standard 993) I have to concede that the 993 was fun to drive MORE of the time. It's limits and outright capability are lower so it entertains at lower speeds in any given scenario, it's slower so demands to be worked more at any given pace, it has a lot of low speed chatter and soundtrack, lots of popping and crackling on the overrun and generally just a ton of character and old school mechanical charm. All of its controls are also that little bit more delightful with a little more weight and substance. The steering in the 993 is cause for specific comment as its quite a lot heavier and more of a connected feel and the RS gearshift is slicker but more mechanical and falls to hand beautifully.
Ok, so the 996 GT3 is right up there for feel and feedback especially when compared to its peers and more modern cars, but you don't quite savour the machine-like feel of everything in the same way you do my 993. Whereas the 993 has a high dose of quirky charm, the Gt3 feels more clinical, teutonic and almost sexless, like more of an no-frills means to and end, fashioned in the most unpretentious, unflamboyant way possible. I'll surmise that by postulating that once you become a lover of the agricultural mechanical nature of the aircooled cars it's perhaps a very difficult thing to live up to in other vehicles.
I also discovered in Europe that the Mk1 GT3 also has a slightly lazy quality about it. The gearing is very long, it takes a while to wind up the engine with little punch low down and if you are a little bit tired and lacking in mental commitment then it's a car that can take on a slightly cumbersome, languid character. On the motorway it needs more concentration than most other cars. In fact it's a car that needs concentration most of the time and doesn't really do anything by itself. I found this made the trip more tiring than I anticipated, even after allowing for the bigger mileages. Truth be told, in an ideal world the Mk1 GT3 needs a bit more power to better match the excellence of the chassis and this is coming from someone who is a complete non-straight line junkie and has rarely ever wished for more power in any car. Whereas the 993 never feels like it really needs more oomph, the more modern chassis and sheer ability of the GT3 comfortably contains the straight line performance on offer and on occasion you find yourself wishing for another 50bhp or so more and another 500rpm to make it feel a little bit more alive and vivid.
The other big difference between the two models is that there is a lot more actual car there in the GT3, a thicker dash, thicker doors, longer wheelbase and more sense of 'stuff' whereas when you sit behind the wheel of the 993 all you are aware of is a tiny dainty windscreen frame, a skinny little dash and very little in the way of actual 'car'. In this way the aircooled 911 reminds me more of the caterham or elise experience with its stubbier wheelbase, more sense of intimacy, cruder dynamics and lower speed fun.
Having said all that though, the bottom line is that the GT3 is dynamically superior in every single way. The moment you get into it you know that its ability is of a completely different order. The bigger footprint, greater rigidity, longer wheelbase, it feels like it came from a whole different epoch. And once you press on you realise that it stops, goes, steers way better than the 993. It is far more precise, more accurate, more delicate, far far stiffer, better wheel control, is cleaner and purer in its response, is more settled and adept in a corner, has more mechanical grip through all phases of a bend and just feels like it was made a whole decade later rather than just 3 years. Not only is it a much better car but when you get the right road you find that it is more rewarding too. Because it's more precise, more instrument like and not ham fisted in any way like a 993 can sometimes be, it requires you to be the same. It praises methodical, measured, technical driving. When you do everything correctly, in sequence, in perfect time, with not one unecessary or false input, you then achieve a feeling of control, a sense of man machine relatedness that is comfortably beyond anything a 993 can serve up. The more like a circuit the road is, the more the GT3 comes alive and makes sense and this is the way it reveals to you the its ultimate DNA. I am not sure I could say the same for the 997 generation as i've not spent enough time in them but the 996 mk1 is unashamedly a circuit car at its core. When you sample this and jump from car to car, it makes the 993 feel crude, old, clumsy, treacley in the steering department and very very heavy footed.
No doubt about it, on that right road, when the GT3 hits its element and you make it live out what it is, you forgive it for the other times when it's perhaps not quite as engaging, too capable or a little taxing. It also has to be said that if out and out pace if your thing, then point to point it is monumentally rapid and the feeling of the GT3 settling beautifully then digging in, its rear outside shoulder purposefully squatting down, with your body supported and connected to the whole bodyshell by the buckets, is surely one of motorings all time great sensations. I'll also add that the GT3 surprised me on some of the tighter sections and the rougher tarmac. Badly worn roads didn't affect it nearly as much as I would have imagined and it tends to just thunder over poor surfaces once up to speed. It is deceptively nimble as well through the sharp stuff. The A1604 in the Pyrenees proved that beyond any doubt.
If I took the GT3 on a trip like this again though, I would certainly try and keep the daily miles to something a little lower that 400 a day. I would also fit a sportscat or bypass pipes, something to give it a bit more sonic character. The final thing I'd consider is a single mass flywheel just to give the drivetrain that extra sense of urgency and freedom. As much as I've always loved the 996RS, I am glad that my car has the spring rates and road manners that it does though. For long trips like this I am not sure I'd want it any more stiffer or focused.
So who wins, which is best ? Well clearly the GT3 is the better car but the 993 scores back in equal measure with its charm, character, the bespoke 'hewn from granite' fashion of its construction, and that timeless sense of being a classic. One blip from the throttle and one clunk of the drivers door shutting and you know that it has something that the 996 is totally devoid of.
Which would I choose if I could only have one ? Well that's a very very difficult question. Whilst I am more emotionally attached to the 993 and its vintage beauty stirs me more too, the GT3 is just so much more accomplished. I suspect the best answer is to say that the one i'd pick is the one i'd been driving the most prior to having to make that decision. When I get into the GT3 after the 993 it feels too modern, too cold and aloof and too big as well. When I get into the 993 after enjoying the GT3 it feels leaden footed, clumsily suspended, very bendy in the chassis department and just a bit ancient. Let's just say that I don't see either of them leaving my ownership any time soon. They are both rear engined 911's full of feel feedback and aliveness, they both key into the road in a way far more interesting than just about 99.9% of other cars, they both make the driver a central part of the equation and when you're on it, they are both utterly magical.
Edited by jackal on Thursday 11th July 19:00
Mousem40 said:
Great write up
From reading that, I think deep down the 993 would still be in the garage if he had to sell one.Jackel, you should have tried the Pyrenees in your 968CS. Not as fast as most things, but the car I've truly and honestly enjoyed the most around the mountains, and the only one that came back in as good a condition as it went. It handled it easily.
Some have come back f
ked :-)Edited because of silly iPhone predictive text thingy.
Edited by Wozy68 on Thursday 11th July 22:22
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