GT3 Dilemma & Man-Logic
Discussion
Disclaimer - this post is written by someone who currently owns two p-cars and has owned a fair amount in the past, which have included a GT3 and an RS. This is not a troll post nor is it intended to resemble a summer-fuelled teen student destined to create an argument thread. Any semblance to a post of an internet stirmeister is neither intended nor implied. 
So, with that out of the way, I have a question to those Porsche owners and in particular the GT3 camp.
At the moment, 996 GT3s are comfortably within the £30,000 range but are also either over, or just touching, a decade old. Whilst many have been cared for, even those that have are showing signs of their age and use.
As someone looking at one solely for track use, with very occasional road use thrown in, would you still, in your wisdom, recommend this route or would you offer another alternative?
For example, the Ginetta G40R? They can be bought new for £30,000 and are a track car reverse engineered for the road; therefore, perhaps better suited for my intended purpose and without the concerns of 10-year old mechanical item.
Are there other, newer cars, which are equally in the same price point but offer the same on-track ability?
Or, like so many of us, do we ignore those other options and plunge straight into ownership of Stuttgart metal because of the iconic brand that it is?
Let me also stress that I am not interested in halfway house road cars - I have a fine example of that in the GTS - therefore, for track, I want something that feels like a track car and is RWD, designed to accommodate a roll cage, harnesses and proper bucket seats.
I'd love to hear your opinions, and specifically from people who have bought a £30-£40k Porsche track car...
So, with that out of the way, I have a question to those Porsche owners and in particular the GT3 camp.
At the moment, 996 GT3s are comfortably within the £30,000 range but are also either over, or just touching, a decade old. Whilst many have been cared for, even those that have are showing signs of their age and use.
As someone looking at one solely for track use, with very occasional road use thrown in, would you still, in your wisdom, recommend this route or would you offer another alternative?
For example, the Ginetta G40R? They can be bought new for £30,000 and are a track car reverse engineered for the road; therefore, perhaps better suited for my intended purpose and without the concerns of 10-year old mechanical item.
Are there other, newer cars, which are equally in the same price point but offer the same on-track ability?
Or, like so many of us, do we ignore those other options and plunge straight into ownership of Stuttgart metal because of the iconic brand that it is?
Let me also stress that I am not interested in halfway house road cars - I have a fine example of that in the GTS - therefore, for track, I want something that feels like a track car and is RWD, designed to accommodate a roll cage, harnesses and proper bucket seats.
I'd love to hear your opinions, and specifically from people who have bought a £30-£40k Porsche track car...
Edited by Lightningman on Friday 9th August 12:51
If its for the track, buy a Cup. Faster, safer and value is unaffected by track use.
By the time you buy a GT3, convert it across, set it up etc you will have spent more and have less.
That's the Porsche side out of the way.
Now as to what track car you buy, work out a budget for running (or buying and running) and this will tell you where you are looking in terms of the car itself. Tyres, maintenance, prep etc all mount up.
You may find that you need to run something a bit more humble than you would like to, but being realistic and running a car properly is sustainable.
By the time you buy a GT3, convert it across, set it up etc you will have spent more and have less.
That's the Porsche side out of the way.
Now as to what track car you buy, work out a budget for running (or buying and running) and this will tell you where you are looking in terms of the car itself. Tyres, maintenance, prep etc all mount up.
You may find that you need to run something a bit more humble than you would like to, but being realistic and running a car properly is sustainable.
fioran0 said:
If its for the track, buy a Cup. Faster, safer and value is unaffected by track use.
By the time you buy a GT3, convert it across, set it up etc you will have spent more and have less.
That's the Porsche side out of the way.
Has to be road legal.By the time you buy a GT3, convert it across, set it up etc you will have spent more and have less.
That's the Porsche side out of the way.
As for budget - budget for the car is flexible; HOWEVER, and this is the big 'but', the higher the value of the car, the less I have enjoyed tracking them. Therefore, I'd like to keep my budget for the car purchase within the £30ks, although as with all man-logic decisions, this could creep up a little.
Budget for running the car is there and I'm not concerned about that. I don't do a huge amount of track days but the aim is to do 6-10 a year. What I do not want to fund is massive bills like engine rebuild, etc, which is why mechanical age starts to come into play.
I hope that provides further background to my original post and I look forward to feedback and opinions
996 GT3 plus cup plates in diff, new suspension (KWv3 or equiv), cup toe links, PFC or Alcon front brakes and decent rubber is great track tool and driveable on road too, though harsh. They do eat bits - bushes, tyres and brakes - but the engine is superb and as long as you buy a sensible mileage one, a rebuild should not be an issue. Boxes strong too - at least in Mk2.
But the best fun I had in a car on track was a properly prepped 968. Cheap as chips to run, very relaible and much more fun than the GT3 as I drove it on the limit every track day without being a) scared of crashing it, or b) feeling it was a bit beyond me if things went pear shaped in extremis.
But the best fun I had in a car on track was a properly prepped 968. Cheap as chips to run, very relaible and much more fun than the GT3 as I drove it on the limit every track day without being a) scared of crashing it, or b) feeling it was a bit beyond me if things went pear shaped in extremis.
You'd be better with something air-cooled, on which running costs are lower, and the car's likely to be lighter which is always desirable on track. I have no vested interest at all, but having seen the advert for my old race car (now converted for road use) I'd suggest that it would be perfect for what you want, and is likely to appreciate. Advert is here
A Ginetta sounds an interesting alternative though - I know you can rent a G50 from the factory for a race weekend, might be worth asking if there's any other options to properly experience one to see if it's your thing.
A Ginetta sounds an interesting alternative though - I know you can rent a G50 from the factory for a race weekend, might be worth asking if there's any other options to properly experience one to see if it's your thing.
I'm sure many will disagree but to be honest, unless someone has pots of cash, i'm not sure someone would buy a GT3 if they are looking for a car to use primarily on track and not on the road.
Man maths or man logic or anything, a GT3 is a very expensive car to track. They aren't light, they are high value, consumables are expensive, brakes, tyres, servcing etc.
Why not look at a Radical or a Caterham ?
Man maths or man logic or anything, a GT3 is a very expensive car to track. They aren't light, they are high value, consumables are expensive, brakes, tyres, servcing etc.
Why not look at a Radical or a Caterham ?
Jmracing66 said:
Why not look at a Radical or a Caterham ?
In one word: rain 
Our UK weather is too unpredictable and I view them as a fair weather tool. A track day where you spend the entire event soaking wet sounds awful to me.
Consumables would be as cheap on a Ginetta, so the Radical or Caterham have no appeal to me.
I had a 993 and am concerned a 964 would mirror that experience: oil leaks, never ending minor issues, water ingress, everything tired and in need of tlc.
If you're after a 3rd car, I'd make it track only (but still road legal if absolutely necessary) and use your other two cars for road thrills.
With that in mind I wouldn't buy another 911 if I were you, especially a GT3. You want a good back to basics lightweight car. As others have said a Caterham maybe, although the crash protection scares me.
Radicals are good but bike engined cars are a nightmare. You'd have to be a massive Porsche fan to bother with a GT3 as track only. As people always say on here, it's all about the challenge of mastering the rear engined layout but personally on track I can have fun in anything, so that doesn't interest me too much and again as people have said they are not cheap cars to track. They aren't cheap cars full stop.
Why does it have to be road legal? Just to get it to track?
I'd be compromising on that and get an ex race car with a good history of results. An ex-touring car or saloon car. Quick enough, still a learning curve and they'll have a good sturdy cage in, should the worst happen.
All just my 2p worth.
With that in mind I wouldn't buy another 911 if I were you, especially a GT3. You want a good back to basics lightweight car. As others have said a Caterham maybe, although the crash protection scares me.
Radicals are good but bike engined cars are a nightmare. You'd have to be a massive Porsche fan to bother with a GT3 as track only. As people always say on here, it's all about the challenge of mastering the rear engined layout but personally on track I can have fun in anything, so that doesn't interest me too much and again as people have said they are not cheap cars to track. They aren't cheap cars full stop.
Why does it have to be road legal? Just to get it to track?
I'd be compromising on that and get an ex race car with a good history of results. An ex-touring car or saloon car. Quick enough, still a learning curve and they'll have a good sturdy cage in, should the worst happen.
All just my 2p worth.
Nothing comes close in my opinion ...
Almost at mechanical Cup spec now, engine, gearbox/clutch/flywheel/starter, shifter & cables, suspension & components, wheels, slicks, brakes, CS cage, Recaros & Schroths. As I've chosen to retain the carpets & factory steel doors I will never be able to get I fully down to Cup weight but it is a good deal lighter than a standard street car.
Neil is correct in saying it will never be a Cup, nor will it be quite as safe or ultimately as quick, but I do use it to drive over to Europe every summer so I've drawn the line there.
Yes I could & should have bought a Cup car and a trailer, but I'm addicted to constantly messing & modifying my cars as well as being full time skint !
Monza, Mugello, Imola, Alps & Spa in a month or so on an unofficial Caterfield hunt
Almost at mechanical Cup spec now, engine, gearbox/clutch/flywheel/starter, shifter & cables, suspension & components, wheels, slicks, brakes, CS cage, Recaros & Schroths. As I've chosen to retain the carpets & factory steel doors I will never be able to get I fully down to Cup weight but it is a good deal lighter than a standard street car.
Neil is correct in saying it will never be a Cup, nor will it be quite as safe or ultimately as quick, but I do use it to drive over to Europe every summer so I've drawn the line there.
Yes I could & should have bought a Cup car and a trailer, but I'm addicted to constantly messing & modifying my cars as well as being full time skint !
Monza, Mugello, Imola, Alps & Spa in a month or so on an unofficial Caterfield hunt
Lightningman said:
Consumables would be as cheap on a Ginetta, so the Radical or Caterham have no appeal to me.
Are the little Ginettas that quick though? I don't think they are.My mate has a G50 which is quick enough but cheap it ain't. Hewland dog box etc, and a steep learning curve as far as technical info goes unless you know any of the proper teams. Luckily he does.
Depends on whether your have a real desire to master 911s. If so then GT3 would seem a logical choice, or as others have said a cup car if you can live with the road limitations.
If the 911 factors isn't that important then a 968 is a truly fantastic car. Not that powerful but very fast in the right hands and a great car to develop your skills
A well set up 944 turbo is also excellent and probably faster if that matters to you.
An Exige is also a really fantastic car. Mine was an NA car so not that powerful but an absolute hoot to drive on the road - more fun than anything I've had before or after including GT2 and 3
If the 911 factors isn't that important then a 968 is a truly fantastic car. Not that powerful but very fast in the right hands and a great car to develop your skills
A well set up 944 turbo is also excellent and probably faster if that matters to you.
An Exige is also a really fantastic car. Mine was an NA car so not that powerful but an absolute hoot to drive on the road - more fun than anything I've had before or after including GT2 and 3
Lightningman said:
I had a 993 and am concerned a 964 would mirror that experience: oil leaks, never ending minor issues, water ingress, everything tired and in need of tlc.
I know just what you mean, which is why I suggested that car as an example - it's all just been refreshed so maintenance should be less than on most GT3's, which are 9-14 years old now. Oh yeah, and it never leaked oil during the 3 seasons I raced it so no reason to expect it should now, with a thorough rebuild with new barrels & pistons. You even get to finish running it in properly.I've had a 968 Club Sport and it was a great car but was more enjoyable because of the handling rather than the grunt. I don't feel like going back to a 968 for that same reason (and again, that they are getting older).
I've toyed with Exiges before but I'm tall and they don't suit a taller driver (in my experience). I've sat in a G40R and fit well - probably because Lawrence Tomlinson is reasonably tall.
As for the pleasure gained from mastering the handling of a 911, it has some appeal but unless we delve into the deep and murky past of the early 911s, in recent decades they have become more and more placid and certainly (excluding the 996 GT2) are relatively predictable.
A 964/993 Cup car, road legal, has a lot of appeal but if I am not mistaken, they are circa £50k for a reasonable one?
I've toyed with Exiges before but I'm tall and they don't suit a taller driver (in my experience). I've sat in a G40R and fit well - probably because Lawrence Tomlinson is reasonably tall.
As for the pleasure gained from mastering the handling of a 911, it has some appeal but unless we delve into the deep and murky past of the early 911s, in recent decades they have become more and more placid and certainly (excluding the 996 GT2) are relatively predictable.
A 964/993 Cup car, road legal, has a lot of appeal but if I am not mistaken, they are circa £50k for a reasonable one?
fioran0 said:
If its for the track, buy a Cup. Faster, safer and value is unaffected by track use.
By the time you buy a GT3, convert it across, set it up etc you will have spent more and have less.
That's the Porsche side out of the way.
Now as to what track car you buy, work out a budget for running (or buying and running) and this will tell you where you are looking in terms of the car itself. Tyres, maintenance, prep etc all mount up.
You may find that you need to run something a bit more humble than you would like to, but being realistic and running a car properly is sustainable.
I'd guess that a Cup will have higher maintenance cost associated with it. I think of engine and gearbox revision intervals etc...By the time you buy a GT3, convert it across, set it up etc you will have spent more and have less.
That's the Porsche side out of the way.
Now as to what track car you buy, work out a budget for running (or buying and running) and this will tell you where you are looking in terms of the car itself. Tyres, maintenance, prep etc all mount up.
You may find that you need to run something a bit more humble than you would like to, but being realistic and running a car properly is sustainable.
Lightningman said:
I had a 993 and am concerned a 964 would mirror that experience: oil leaks, never ending minor issues, water ingress, everything tired and in need of tlc.
With your budget you could either get one which has been fully rebuilt and ready to go with no worries (see Goose's post above) or buy something for half your budget and spend the rest on sorting it out. It's now possible to do the latter with a 993 because they're starting to pop up now at sub £15K. A friend of mine recently picked one up cheaply and is turning it in to a track car because a 964C2 candidate (his initial choice) was proving difficult to find due to the demand for them at the moment. The 993C2 could some become the new 964C2. 
"solely for track use"
this is the issue if you want to also drive to the track or use any track car on the raod imo.
remember to run a larger car like a GT3 on track costs circa 1k per track day taking every thing into account.
If I wanted a track day car than I would have (and did have) A Lotus Exige.
I don't see the point in a 35k track hack which costs 1k a track day to run,
Tracks days get very dull after a while imo and as people soon find out fustrating due to having a usable road spec.
even on a full day I do 4 x 6 laps at most and spend the rest of the day chatting and having a look around.
I get more of a buzz on a nice B road than on track.
I do about 3 a year and drive as best as possable round the issues of having a car made for the road on track.
if you want a real track car which would lap 10 seconds quicker buy a Radical, but again I see no point being the fastest car on tack as you just end up stuck behind cars and never get a quick lap in.
Funny thing track days or owning a expensive car just for them.
You could prob race in the MR2 class for a year at 1/2 the cost of buying a running a GT3 for track.
this is the issue if you want to also drive to the track or use any track car on the raod imo.
remember to run a larger car like a GT3 on track costs circa 1k per track day taking every thing into account.
If I wanted a track day car than I would have (and did have) A Lotus Exige.
I don't see the point in a 35k track hack which costs 1k a track day to run,
Tracks days get very dull after a while imo and as people soon find out fustrating due to having a usable road spec.
even on a full day I do 4 x 6 laps at most and spend the rest of the day chatting and having a look around.
I get more of a buzz on a nice B road than on track.
I do about 3 a year and drive as best as possable round the issues of having a car made for the road on track.
if you want a real track car which would lap 10 seconds quicker buy a Radical, but again I see no point being the fastest car on tack as you just end up stuck behind cars and never get a quick lap in.
Funny thing track days
or owning a expensive car just for them.You could prob race in the MR2 class for a year at 1/2 the cost of buying a running a GT3 for track.
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