Tell me I'm Wrong - Just drove my first 911

[RacerMike]

Somehow, I've managed to reach the grand old age of 29 and a half without driving a 911...or indeed even sitting in the passenger seat of one! This is despite being lucky enough to drive everything from a 2.2l Vectra to a Caterham R300 race car and a few 500+ monsters in between.

One of my friends has just bought a 996 Turbo X50 and was kind enough to let me have a quick go today. A fantastic opportunity, and one I'm really grateful for. Having thought quite seriously about owning a 911 of some description in future, it was definitely welcome. However (and I know this sounds seriously dim) I honestly didn't really expect the 'rear enginedness' to be so utterly dominant.

Rather than write a huge diatribe of wordy description, I'll summaries in some handy bullet points:

Positives:

-Feels very small and compact for a car with that level of performance
-The way the 4WD operates feels more 2WD+ and generally doesn't seem to make the car feel 4WD in normal driving
-Throttle response is very impressive for a forced induction car
-General controls are impressively 'normal' (light clutch and well weighted pedals)
-Well put together

Things I'm not sure about:

-Steering feel - There's just too much! I don't need to know that the front right wheel has just found a slightly larger pebble embedded in the tarmac. All I care about is when the front end's relinquished it's grip. As it is, there's just too much going on.
-'On center feel' is just far too direct. It makes the car feel far too nervous.
-Brake feel isn't good at normal road speeds. There's a dead band in the travel where more travel seems to bring no further decel until you press even more.
-I don't like the feeling that the car yaws from a point miles behind the rear axle when turning in. I know this is as a result of it being rear engined, but I didn't really think it would be quite so profound.
-Gear change is inconsistent and can't be rushed. It makes me want a PDK.
-General ergonomics aren't great. I'm really surprised that the 996 didn't have height adjustment on the steering!

So....if I drive one more, will it get better?! And is the 997 considerably better than the 996?

Edited by RacerMike on Monday 30th September 00:09

[Pesty]

RacerMike said:

S
So....if I drive one more, will it get better?!

I imagine so but only you will know that.

A short test drive isnt enough.

You talk of nervousness and too much feedback. After a few weeks you would get used to that then think every other car you get in should be the same probably.

[Tonsko]

I'd love to have a go. Having the juice of a westfield, but in a properly set up modern car would be a joy to drive.

Whats the least expensive way of having a go, as I've never driven one (and don't know anyone with one).

[jackal]

Can totally appreciate your experience. I hated the first few 911s i drove for many of the reasons you mention, especially the stuff about weight.

The short story is a good 911 does not drop its knickers on the first date. It takes time, but once you GET IT, very little else will do and all those cars with mid or front engined dynamics will feel WRONG.

My other advice is to try a rear wheel drive normally aspirated car as well because that is the real deal IMO although the abnormalities you allude to will be even stronger.

[RDMcG]

Seems like a very accurate first impression to me. 911s are cars that some people love and others think are overrated. I am a big fan, but I thing you will develop your own impression after multiple drives, which will either leave you cold or turn you into a Porsche fanatic. Each is valid.

[Shurv]

I'd suggest you have another drive of it asap and then see what you think. Everything you say is exactly how a 911 should feel. It's like a race car, it's all there, but you have to earn it. The brakes are a good example,they are really strong, but not over served like most cars,so your leg has to go the work, but boy, can you brake accurately this way.Same with the steering,once you get used to the levels of feedback,all other cars will feel rubbish.I bought mine mainly because I wanted a car with great steering and brakes,I have not been disappointed.

[anonymous-user]

I get back in my Jag XF which is a sports saloon and its feels like a big wobbly jelly after my 7.1 Turbo

[mr pg]

RacerMike said:

Somehow, I've managed to reach the grand old age of 29 and a half without driving a 911...or indeed even sitting in the passenger seat of one! This is despite being lucky enough to drive everything from a 2.2l Vectra to a Caterham R300 race car and a few 500+ monsters in between.

One of my friends has just bought a 996 Turbo X50 and was kind enough to let me have a quick go today. A fantastic opportunity, and one I'm really grateful for. Having thought quite seriously about owning a 911 of some description in future, it was definitely welcome. However (and I know this sounds seriously dim) I honestly didn't really expect the 'rear enginedness' to be so utterly dominant.

Rather than write a huge diatribe of wordy description, I'll summaries in some handy bullet points:

Positives:

-Feels very small and compact for a car with that level of performance
One of the many plusses of a 911.
-The way the 4WD operates feels more 2WD+ and generally doesn't seem to make the car feel 4WD in normal driving
Agreed.
-Throttle response is very impressive for a forced induction car
Agreed
-General controls are impressively 'normal' (light clutch and well weighted pedals)
Agreed.
-Well put together
Some say the 996 isn't that good, but I'm happy with mine.

Things I'm not sure about:

-Steering feel - There's just too much! I don't need to know that the front right wheel has just found a slightly larger pebble embedded in the tarmac. All I care about is when the front end's relinquished it's grip. As it is, there's just too much going on.
You wouldn't like a rwd 911 then , as the turbo loses out on steering feel. I miss the feel I had on my 964 C2.
-'On center feel' is just far too direct. It makes the car feel far too nervous.
Geometry is critical on a 911, but a 911 feels different to anything else anyway, so maybe a combination.
-Brake feel isn't good at normal road speeds. There's a dead band in the travel where more travel seems to bring no further decel until you press even more.
Brakes can feel dead compared with other cars, but then you realise that everything else is overservoed.
-I don't like the feeling that the car yaws from a point miles behind the rear axle when turning in. I know this is as a result of it being rear engined, but I didn't really think it would be quite so profound.
-Gear change is inconsistent and can't be rushed. It makes me want a PDK.
Gear change should be consistent, and quick as you like. Short shift kits are available to make it quicker still.
-General ergonomics aren't great. I'm really surprised that the 996 didn't have height adjustment on the steering!
Personal thing as it's spot on for me.

So....if I drive one more, will it get better?! And is the 997 considerably better than the 996?
Yes it would get better!

Edited by RacerMike on Monday 30th September 00:09

[nsm3]

Sounds like you may prefer the new 9x1 series of cars, with electro-assist steering and a more 50/50 feel to the weight distribution?

[Whitean3]

I do think it takes a little time to get used to the slightly different feel of a 911, especially if you are used to modern cars. I did gel immediately with mine on a longish test drive (I think the view of the front wings out of the windscreen had a lot to do with it!), but there were some things that weren't as expected, notably the brakes. I had read everywhere that the 911 has incredible brakes- so I was expecting to be thrown through the windscreen when I tried them out. They are very underservoed and can feel a little wooden if you are used to that instant response.

I didn't fully appreciate how wonderful the steering feel is- but it is a pleasure to get such feedback through the wheel. And the brakes too- once you are used to them, and understand you have to do more of the work, they are so easy to modulate.

Driving a modern car in comparison puts things into perspective- far easier to drive (without even thinking) and very comfortable and composed; but for pure driving pleasure, I'm never going to sell my 911 (It's a 996 anyway, so noone would want to buy it!)

[MadMark981]

RacerMike said:

Somehow, I've managed to reach the grand old age of 29 and a half without driving a 911...or indeed even sitting in the passenger seat of one! This is despite being lucky enough to drive everything from a 2.2l Vectra to a Caterham R300 race car and a few 500+ monsters in between.

One of my friends has just bought a 996 Turbo X50 and was kind enough to let me have a quick go today. A fantastic opportunity, and one I'm really grateful for. Having thought quite seriously about owning a 911 of some description in future, it was definitely welcome. However (and I know this sounds seriously dim) I honestly didn't really expect the 'rear enginedness' to be so utterly dominant.

Rather than write a huge diatribe of wordy description, I'll summaries in some handy bullet points:

Positives:

-Feels very small and compact for a car with that level of performance
-The way the 4WD operates feels more 2WD+ and generally doesn't seem to make the car feel 4WD in normal driving
-Throttle response is very impressive for a forced induction car
-General controls are impressively 'normal' (light clutch and well weighted pedals)
-Well put together

Things I'm not sure about:

-Steering feel - There's just too much! I don't need to know that the front right wheel has just found a slightly larger pebble embedded in the tarmac. All I care about is when the front end's relinquished it's grip. As it is, there's just too much going on.
-'On center feel' is just far too direct. It makes the car feel far too nervous.
-Brake feel isn't good at normal road speeds. There's a dead band in the travel where more travel seems to bring no further decel until you press even more.
-I don't like the feeling that the car yaws from a point miles behind the rear axle when turning in. I know this is as a result of it being rear engined, but I didn't really think it would be quite so profound.
-Gear change is inconsistent and can't be rushed. It makes me want a PDK.
-General ergonomics aren't great. I'm really surprised that the 996 didn't have height adjustment on the steering!

So....if I drive one more, will it get better?! And is the 997 considerably better than the 996?

Edited by RacerMike on Monday 30th September 00:09

Like the others - I think that's a pretty good synopsis! However, the "feel" of all the controls is a major part of why people buy them and like others, my company Audi used to drive me nuts after a weekend in any Porsche.

One other thing is that the 996 Turbo is obviously 4WD - so in any of the 2WD versions - your comment that "the car yaws from a point miles behind the rear axle when turning in" is exacerbated. So on a GT3 (for example), you turn in and once at (or near) the apex, you pour on the power to utilise all that rear weight bias for supreme traction. I do know what you mean though, as one of my mates hates that rear weight bias and just can't get on with with you describe when he finds his hairy chested TVR Griffith has so much more balance ....

I think the purest and best balanced Porsches are probably either the Cayman R or the Boxster Spyder - but you pays your money ....

Edited by MadMark981 on Monday 30th September 11:21

[DoubleSix]

jackal said:

Can totally appreciate your experience. I hated the first few 911s i drove for many of the reasons you mention, especially the stuff about weight.

The short story is a good 911 does not drop its knickers on the first date. It takes time, but once you GET IT, very little else will do and all those cars with mid or front engined dynamics will feel WRONG.

My other advice is to try a rear wheel drive normally aspirated car as well because that is the real deal IMO although the abnormalities you allude to will be even stronger.

Basically this..

I think it's only really through ownership that you come to truely understand chracterful cars like the 911, just hopping in and having a blast really isn't going to reveal much imo.

Edited by DoubleSix on Monday 30th September 08:51

[krallicious]

As had been said, it takes a while to get comfortable with the 911. I had a chance to drive my M3 after a couple of months in the turbo and it felt very disconnected and wobbly. Before the 997, the M3 was quite simply the best day to day car I had ever driven.

[Asterix]

As said, sounds about right.

Btw, if you think the Turbo has 'chatty' steering, try a non-4WD version.

[DanoS4]

I drove 9 996s before I found the right one. Tried both 2 & 4wd derivatives. Loved the C2, but for where we live, the C4 was going to be more appropriate (+ the wife drives the car too, and she's used to my old S4 and Subarus). Gelled with it very quickly - on the drive back from Guildford to Herefordshire.

But as I have a Volvo as a 2nd car, I can understand what you mean. It's something that you get used to and either love or (imho) just don't "get".

And both opinions are perfectly valid.

[996TT02]

RacerMike said:

Things I'm not sure about:

-Steering feel - There's just too much! I don't need to know that the front right wheel has just found a slightly larger pebble embedded in the tarmac. All I care about is when the front end's relinquished it's grip. As it is, there's just too much going on.
-'On center feel' is just far too direct. It makes the car feel far too nervous.
-Brake feel isn't good at normal road speeds. There's a dead band in the travel where more travel seems to bring no further decel until you press even more.
-I don't like the feeling that the car yaws from a point miles behind the rear axle when turning in. I know this is as a result of it being rear engined, but I didn't really think it would be quite so profound.
-Gear change is inconsistent and can't be rushed. It makes me want a PDK.
-General ergonomics aren't great. I'm really surprised that the 996 didn't have height adjustment on the steering!

Steering, on-centre feel comments - could be that the geometry needs looking at. Mine was very nervous feeling and very tiring on a motorway, always trying to go this way and that. The geometry was out, and apparently this is a common-ish issue as the rubber bushes age. My car does not now feel anything like what you are describing. Oh and uneven tyre wear (inner-outer edges) is also very common, and will cause odd effects.

Brake feel - I am not a fan either. I will try bleeding one day.

Yaw issue. Tyre pressures are very important, and possibly tyre choice too. I had a bad Pirelli with a slow, and like you I assumed that feeling the weight out the back was normal. It is not, ordinarily. 44 psi is what the rears need, less than that and the sidewall presumably flexes and you feel the weight. Unfortunately 44 psi is more than many uninformed garages and perhaps some owners expect to inflate the rears to.

I don't have any issues with my gearchange. It's a car that is new to you, so that may have a bearing. If anything is really wrong, then it was with the car you drove, not typical. I can not call the change anything exceptional, but just plain does the job well.

Yes one does take a bit of time to fiddle around with all the adjustments to make oneself comfortable. I shared your opinion for quite a few miles, but you will eventually get there! The seat is also height adjustable by quite a bit, so the steering issue is slightly moot. The seat adjusts every which way, and I discovered that one should not try to be conservative with the adjustments. I tilt mine back quite a bit so I get excellent thigh support. Over long distances, I would also consider cruise to be an essential fitment.

If there is something that you could definitely criticize these cars about, they are not exactly chuckable. If that is what you are used to and desire, then look elsewhere. These 911s will do all they can to stay ON the road. To a very extreme degree. Definitely a bonus for 80% of drivers however, self included. The performance is ridiculously accessible, I feel safer with 420 German horses than with 115 Japanese ones!

Edited by 996TT02 on Monday 30th September 11:38

[mrdemon]

Shurv said:

Everything you say is exactly how a 911 should feel. It's like a race car, .

like which race cars ?

[BertBert]

I don't recognise the description at all from the 996TT I drove. I found it the opposite, nowhere near edgy enough. That's how I ended up in a 6RS. I thought the standard out of the box turbo was a bit ordinary. Super fast, but not enough feedback or throttle adjustable dynamics at all. Well done though for finding an interesting one!
Bert

[mollytherocker]

A 911 is a marmite car, and so it should be!

The older the car the stronger and more pungent the flavour!

Just like a good Rioja Reserve.

[monthefish]

RacerMike said:

Things I'm not sure about:

-Steering feel - There's just too much! I don't need to know that the front right wheel has just found a slightly larger pebble embedded in the tarmac. All I care about is when the front end's relinquished it's grip. As it is, there's just too much going on.

Interesting, as this almost exactly mirrors my first drive. "Feedback overload" I called it and initially it felt a bit nervous.
But as I got to know the car, I grew to absolutely love it, and it really inspires confidence when pushing on as you know exactly what's going on beneath you.
Stepping out from the 996t into any other car always felt a bit numb and lifeless.