Is every 911 generation worse than its predecessor?
Discussion
As someone who has owned occasional Porsches ( and still do), it seems that in most Porsche forums there is a strange nostalgia for the "Greatest" (insert old model here), and the decline of the "current" ( insert model here).
It is not a new thing…air-cooled is much better than water, the only real RS was the 2.7, the 993 Turbo S is the one to have, the 996RS is much better than the 997RS, the newer cars are less involving, there is too much reliance on electronics, PDK is a backward step, the 991 is the worst of all, and currently the GT3 recall proves the superiority of the Mezger. The CGT is of course superior to the 918, and so on.
I have driven just about everything out there apart from the 918 and the 991GT3, and it seems to me as if each generation (with a few iffy individual versions) has represented a worthwhile advance. Of course, driving characteristics change with each model, but I think of them as different rather than in some way worse. Logically, though, if you started with the 991 and reversed the model release back to a 901, I doubt if it would be seen as progress.
It is not a new thing…air-cooled is much better than water, the only real RS was the 2.7, the 993 Turbo S is the one to have, the 996RS is much better than the 997RS, the newer cars are less involving, there is too much reliance on electronics, PDK is a backward step, the 991 is the worst of all, and currently the GT3 recall proves the superiority of the Mezger. The CGT is of course superior to the 918, and so on.
I have driven just about everything out there apart from the 918 and the 991GT3, and it seems to me as if each generation (with a few iffy individual versions) has represented a worthwhile advance. Of course, driving characteristics change with each model, but I think of them as different rather than in some way worse. Logically, though, if you started with the 991 and reversed the model release back to a 901, I doubt if it would be seen as progress.
They get technically better but maybe lose a little character along the way.
Some character often gets designed back in, to a certain degree, but legislation will always make things a bit heavier, safer and more comfortable.
Plus people are nostalgic in general, and love the dream cars of their youth - when they have money to buy them they tend to be middle aged...
Some character often gets designed back in, to a certain degree, but legislation will always make things a bit heavier, safer and more comfortable.
Plus people are nostalgic in general, and love the dream cars of their youth - when they have money to buy them they tend to be middle aged...
If we take the need to make money as a constant background context, then I suppose there are a number of reasons which drive the changes in design:
- regulatory changes (e.g. which may lead to heavier cars, bigger A pillars, 4 pot engines, etc.)
- improvements in engineering / design (e.g. parking sensors, PDK gearboxes, etc)
- alternative / cheaper manufacturing processes (e.g. cost cutting measures, industrialisation)
- new marketing proposition / consumer appeal (e.g. lightweight track cars, turbos, etc)
- plus others I may have left out
Some of the above contribute to a 'better' design which moves the game on....and some perhaps meet other objectives but may not necessarily improve the driver experience.
So I think the above means that the net net change of every evolution is not always for the 'better' plus couple that with the fact thay as we get older we hanker after 'what we used to have' and therefore not every good change is equally welcome...
- regulatory changes (e.g. which may lead to heavier cars, bigger A pillars, 4 pot engines, etc.)
- improvements in engineering / design (e.g. parking sensors, PDK gearboxes, etc)
- alternative / cheaper manufacturing processes (e.g. cost cutting measures, industrialisation)
- new marketing proposition / consumer appeal (e.g. lightweight track cars, turbos, etc)
- plus others I may have left out
Some of the above contribute to a 'better' design which moves the game on....and some perhaps meet other objectives but may not necessarily improve the driver experience.
So I think the above means that the net net change of every evolution is not always for the 'better' plus couple that with the fact thay as we get older we hanker after 'what we used to have' and therefore not every good change is equally welcome...
domster said:
They get technically better but maybe lose a little character along the way.
Some character often gets designed back in, to a certain degree, but legislation will always make things a bit heavier, safer and more comfortable.
Plus people are nostalgic in general, and love the dream cars of their youth - when they have money to buy them they tend to be middle aged...
Ah - you beat me to it... Some character often gets designed back in, to a certain degree, but legislation will always make things a bit heavier, safer and more comfortable.
Plus people are nostalgic in general, and love the dream cars of their youth - when they have money to buy them they tend to be middle aged...
I think there is good and bad in all of them, but you love them still warts and all.
My car is not everybody's cup of tea however it puts a smile on my face.
There is a Porsche for everybody's taste and pocket which is a good thing.
You can pick holes, at all kinds of things that includes cars.
My car is not everybody's cup of tea however it puts a smile on my face.
There is a Porsche for everybody's taste and pocket which is a good thing.
You can pick holes, at all kinds of things that includes cars.
itsybitsy said:
not true the 997.2 is better than the 997.1 and 996 and some say more of a drivers car than the 991.imho in years to come some will look at the 997.2 as a more modern 993!
Yep, I thought this theory was ringing quite true, ...but then I remembered EVERYONE dislikes the 996.....
I think that the thing to consider in order to understand this is that particularly with the 911, while superficially similar it is a very different car. And while people can argue until the cows come home over the standard nostalgic beard stroking stuff, one thing that is undeniable is that : My, hasn't she grown. Comparing the the pre-impact bumper stuff to a 991 Turbo is like comparing the original Mini to the current Countryman... They share an approximate shape and a badge but do different things better than each other via a completely different driving experience.
It isn't a question of better of worse overall, it is a matter of difference versus preference surely?
It isn't a question of better of worse overall, it is a matter of difference versus preference surely?
itsybitsy said:
not true the 997.2 is better than the 997.1 and 996 and some say more of a drivers car than the 991.imho in years to come some will look at the 997.2 as a more modern 993!
Its what I have decided I will save for if and when I give up on the racing lark, 997.2 with the supposedly "fixed" engine seems to be the pick of the bunch amongst modern sensible money pork.All cars get better but they also get easier to drive and more remote.
10,20,30 years ago, manufacturers didnt go out specifically to make cars more feelsome, more involving, more rear engined, more busy over unsmooth roads etc. No, the cars were just like that as a byroduct because of unevolved tech and manufacturing methods of the time. Crap dampers, soft chassis, heavy unsprung weight, mediocre geometry, agricultural mechanicals, clutches that need the force of a stempede of Rhinos, NA tuned engines with bugger all mpg or torque. Put another way, the cars just weren't very good and they needed a driver more than ever to complete the jigsaw.
Ultimately though, i believe that there is good and bad in all just as someone else said and as a driver, you should be able to embrace all as with each iteration there is just a different set of pleasures on offer.
To give you an idea, i have two analogue 911s and if i add another horse to the stable i honestly couldnt think of anything worse than another old analogue car. Give me a 991 with pdk, rear wheel steer and dynamic engine mounts. Give me a 458 with its flappy paddles and E diff. I'll take anything present day ... inside I am crying out for tech, luxury, state of the art and modernity. Variety is the spice of life.
10,20,30 years ago, manufacturers didnt go out specifically to make cars more feelsome, more involving, more rear engined, more busy over unsmooth roads etc. No, the cars were just like that as a byroduct because of unevolved tech and manufacturing methods of the time. Crap dampers, soft chassis, heavy unsprung weight, mediocre geometry, agricultural mechanicals, clutches that need the force of a stempede of Rhinos, NA tuned engines with bugger all mpg or torque. Put another way, the cars just weren't very good and they needed a driver more than ever to complete the jigsaw.
Ultimately though, i believe that there is good and bad in all just as someone else said and as a driver, you should be able to embrace all as with each iteration there is just a different set of pleasures on offer.
To give you an idea, i have two analogue 911s and if i add another horse to the stable i honestly couldnt think of anything worse than another old analogue car. Give me a 991 with pdk, rear wheel steer and dynamic engine mounts. Give me a 458 with its flappy paddles and E diff. I'll take anything present day ... inside I am crying out for tech, luxury, state of the art and modernity. Variety is the spice of life.
It depends on your definition of better.
Some people will always argue that newer will always be better because its progress. Everyone else is stuck in the past.
But are they? Is 1D better than Zeppelin? Are CD's better than vinyl? Are new houses better than old ones? Is a new Yamaha guitar better than a 59' Les Paul? How about London taxis or the Routemaster bus? Etc etc.
All I know is that if you parked a 991S and a 911S on my drive and gave me the keys to both, I wouldn't need to blink. And it wouldn't matter what the journey was.
Some people will always argue that newer will always be better because its progress. Everyone else is stuck in the past.
But are they? Is 1D better than Zeppelin? Are CD's better than vinyl? Are new houses better than old ones? Is a new Yamaha guitar better than a 59' Les Paul? How about London taxis or the Routemaster bus? Etc etc.
All I know is that if you parked a 991S and a 911S on my drive and gave me the keys to both, I wouldn't need to blink. And it wouldn't matter what the journey was.
mollytherocker said:
It depends on your definition of better.
Some people will always argue that newer will always be better because its progress. Everyone else is stuck in the past.
But are they? Is 1D better than Zeppelin? Are CD's better than vinyl? Are new houses better than old ones? Is a new Yamaha guitar better than a 59' Les Paul? How about London taxis or the Routemaster bus? Etc etc.
All I know is that if you parked a 991S and a 911S on my drive and gave me the keys to both, I wouldn't need to blink. And it wouldn't matter what the journey was
This, although it would probably be a 993 for meSome people will always argue that newer will always be better because its progress. Everyone else is stuck in the past.
But are they? Is 1D better than Zeppelin? Are CD's better than vinyl? Are new houses better than old ones? Is a new Yamaha guitar better than a 59' Les Paul? How about London taxis or the Routemaster bus? Etc etc.
All I know is that if you parked a 991S and a 911S on my drive and gave me the keys to both, I wouldn't need to blink. And it wouldn't matter what the journey was
I think the key message is that Porsche owners (apparently more than any other owners group) seem to have an issue understanding that people are attracted to the different generation cars for very different reasons. Incredible amount of bickering goes on which I just don't understand.
Which is the best 911? The one that ticks your particular boxes better than the others.
Which is the best 911? The one that ticks your particular boxes better than the others.
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