Porsche tuners

[alex_123_fra]

Hi all. About to take delivery of a 2011 Panamera turbo. I am totally clueless about Porsche tuners in the UK apart from DMS (who remap many marques).

I am not after big mods but a stage 1 equivalent remap of the car to take to around 600 bhp/600 lb ft (maybe with decat). Particularly interested in something undetectable by a Porsche dealer after it is returned to standard.

Also are there any diy porsche diagnostic cables like VAG-COM for Audis?

Thanks in advance.

[mrdemon]

What about the person who buys it after ?

Take a look at regal and for diag

http://www.durametric.com/default.aspx

[alex_123_fra]

Thanks.

I always divulge all mods to future owners so that isn't an issue. Dealers however use remaps as an excuse to avoid any warranty work on cars (even if unrelated to engine issues). I'd understand if it drastically changed the specification of the car but stage 1 is hardly significant.

[Matt Seabrook]

The PCM stores every time there is an attempt to flash the ECU. OPC will know how many times they have flashed the PCM for software update. If there are two additional re flashes showing up on the ecu the OPC may have a good idea that the owner has been messing.

[Ian_UK1]

Matt Seabrook said:

The PCM stores every time there is an attempt to flash the ECU. OPC will know how many times they have flashed the PCM for software update. If there are two additional re flashes showing up on the ecu the OPC may have a good idea that the owner has been messing.

As far as I understand the above - the 'flash' counter is only triggered if the ECU is re-flashed using the Porsche PIWIS workshop tool. If a tuning firm re-flashes the appropriate chip(s) inside the ECU directly (either using a chip reader/writer that connects directly to the chip(s) or appropriate software that reads/writes via the ODB-II port) then the flash counter is not changed. This is apparently because the PIWIS re-flashes the whole ECU, whilst a tuner is just re-flashing individual maps or individual chips within the ECU.

It was Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards) who explained this to me as he was re-mapping the 997S.1 I used to own. On that day, he probably uploaded maps to my ECU 7 or 8 times whilst trying different configurations. Before I sold the car, a PIWIS was used to revert the whole ECU to standard. after which the flash counter just showed '1' (as it would if your ECU had ben updated by Porsche at service time).

Ian

[sportsandclassic]

Ian_UK1 said:

Matt Seabrook said:

The PCM stores every time there is an attempt to flash the ECU. OPC will know how many times they have flashed the PCM for software update. If there are two additional re flashes showing up on the ecu the OPC may have a good idea that the owner has been messing.

As far as I understand the above - the 'flash' counter is only triggered if the ECU is re-flashed using the Porsche PIWIS workshop tool. If a tuning firm re-flashes the appropriate chip(s) inside the ECU directly (either using a chip reader/writer that connects directly to the chip(s) or appropriate software that reads/writes via the ODB-II port) then the flash counter is not changed. This is apparently because the PIWIS re-flashes the whole ECU, whilst a tuner is just re-flashing individual maps or individual chips within the ECU.

It was Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards) who explained this to me as he was re-mapping the 997S.1 I used to own. On that day, he probably uploaded maps to my ECU 7 or 8 times whilst trying different configurations. Before I sold the car, a PIWIS was used to revert the whole ECU to standard. after which the flash counter just showed '1' (as it would if your ECU had ben updated by Porsche at service time).

Ian

Hi,

This is correct as the counter will just show 1 flash, BUT there are HEXADECIMAL lines in the EEPROM that show all 00 00 00 00 00 and when the ECU is messed with it changes these from 00 to 11 this is a clear give away that it has been tampered with. The address of these number changes from time to time as people learn where they are located Porsche change the address allocation.
This is detectable with a PIWIS machine when running a VAL (vehicle analysis log)

Mike

[Ian_UK1]

sportsandclassic said:

Hi,

This is correct as the counter will just show 1 flash, BUT there are HEXADECIMAL lines in the EEPROM that show all 00 00 00 00 00 and when the ECU is messed with it changes these from 00 to 11 this is a clear give away that it has been tampered with. The address of these number changes from time to time as people learn where they are located Porsche change the address allocation.
This is detectable with a PIWIS machine when running a VAL (vehicle analysis log)

Mike

I'm not surprised the detection methods have moved-on since my old 997S.1 was re-mapped (about 6 years ago now). I guess it's just the nature of things - every time a new loophole's found, a new way of closing it's devised!

Is the greater security something that's just been included in the current crop of Siemens ECUs or was the Hex register you referred to in the older Bosch ECUs too?

[sportsandclassic]

Hi, nope it's in the older bosch Ecu's too.

[Matt Seabrook]

Thanks for clearing that up Michael I thought that the PCM gave more away then people knew. So unless the software tuner knows the Hex code really well there is a good chance a remap can be discovered? I know one 997 turbo I looked at came back with a tampered ecu when the VAL report was done.

[mrdemon]

if you rewrite the whole ECU code back to the ECU the hex code does not change as you rewriting the complete oem software back onto the car.

some tuners mod ECU data some rewite the whole file, If you reload on a full modded map you can mess about with it as much as you like, as you can just reload the oem file back on in full.
Depends what tune you have and what they provide you with.

some tuned files even sit in their own box of magic tricks which is piggy back onto the ECU so no ECU data is ever touched or messed with

[sportsandclassic]

mrdemon said:

if you rewrite the whole ECU code back to the ECU the hex code does not change as you rewriting the complete oem software back onto the car.

some tuners mod ECU data some rewite the whole file, If you reload on a full modded map you can mess about with it as much as you like, as you can just reload the oem file back on in full.
Depends what tune you have and what they provide you with.

some tuned files even sit in their own box of magic tricks which is piggy back onto the ECU so no ECU data is ever touched or messed with

This is not correct as hex code that alters is not stored in the EEPROM for the maps, it is stored elsewhere on another chip.

[anonymous-user]

alex_123_fra said:

Thanks.

I always divulge all mods to future owners so that isn't an issue. Dealers however use remaps as an excuse to avoid any warranty work on cars (even if unrelated to engine issues). I'd understand if it drastically changed the specification of the car but stage 1 is hardly significant.

Why bother if it's 'hardly significant'? Particularly with a Panamera?

[alex_123_fra]

Thanks guys, very interesting. So does anyone have experience of whether OPCs honour any sort of warranty on remapped cars? The Turbo S is in the tune of 570 bhp as standard but apart from the remap has slightly different turbos I believe.

REALIST123 said:

Why bother if it's 'hardly significant'? Particularly with a Panamera?

The performance difference of a standard turbo vs a remapped turbo is significant (100+ bhp/almost 100 lb ft). What isn't significant is the modifications required to do it (i.e. remap and at most exhaust). I would also not feel that the car is overly stressed at that level of tune (as the turbo S isn't), so if Porsche used this as a means to weasel out of warranty claims, it would seem poor. I'd hate to think how much an official Porsche turbo S upgrade would be over the standard turbo. If buying the car new, the difference in base price is £23k!

[Matt Seabrook]

I would think if OPC found out about a remap you will be kissing goodbye to and sort of guarantee. After all fit a non genuine battery and watch the wriggle out of an extended guarantee. In fairness Porsche have done their sums based on a stock car so if you move the goal posts their accountants calculations go out the window.

[mad ferret]

I condsidered a remap on my Cayenne but they needed to split the ECU which is a route I won't entertain so it is staying standard. By all account any of the later models now have to be split

[mrdemon]

mad ferret said:

. By all account any of the later models now have to be split

they always get cracked, 981 tunes are about to hit the market and we all know 350bhp is there straight away.

[Aeroresh]

Id speak with Rob at DMS. I had my old Cayenne turbo plus other cars remapped by them....cant fault them, well maybe the price but well worth it.