Bore scoring - again
Discussion
So, you've had your 997 for a few months and notice it's using a little oil, say 1 litre every 1500 miles. You also notice that the left hand exhaust is more blackened than the right....not massively, but definitely blacker.
Naturally, you fear bore scoring, so you do the logical thing and have a boroscope done at your trusted indy.
The result was 'wear' on cylinders 4, 5, and 6, so something, but not conclusive. When pushed further, the diagnosis was that the wear shown is "slightly more than piston polishing the bore but not quite scoring the bore lining. If you let the engine warm up properly before hard driving you'll probably be fine for at least 20K".
So, I'm a reasonably guy and went into 911 ownership with my eyes open, knowing these things cost money and the car might need a re-build at some point in its life.
However, my question is, given the car is still under warranty with a reputable indy, do I have cause to go back to them and have a conversation about what they're going to do for me or will they just say that the car's fundamentally fine and not reasonable claim?
Naturally, you fear bore scoring, so you do the logical thing and have a boroscope done at your trusted indy.
The result was 'wear' on cylinders 4, 5, and 6, so something, but not conclusive. When pushed further, the diagnosis was that the wear shown is "slightly more than piston polishing the bore but not quite scoring the bore lining. If you let the engine warm up properly before hard driving you'll probably be fine for at least 20K".
So, I'm a reasonably guy and went into 911 ownership with my eyes open, knowing these things cost money and the car might need a re-build at some point in its life.
However, my question is, given the car is still under warranty with a reputable indy, do I have cause to go back to them and have a conversation about what they're going to do for me or will they just say that the car's fundamentally fine and not reasonable claim?
sportsandclassic said:
Hi, oil consumption figures are within Porsche guide lines so probably not a lot the dealer will or is obliged to do.
Mike
Thanks, yes, that seems to be a consistent response when I've spoken to others. I guess I'm trying to resolve whether this kind of diagnosis is 'acceptable' or whether I should be concerned and slightly unhappy, given I bought the car from a reputable dealer. Mike
newboy997 said:
sportsandclassic said:
Hi, oil consumption figures are within Porsche guide lines so probably not a lot the dealer will or is obliged to do.
Mike
Thanks, yes, that seems to be a consistent response when I've spoken to others. I guess I'm trying to resolve whether this kind of diagnosis is 'acceptable' or whether I should be concerned and slightly unhappy, given I bought the car from a reputable dealer. Mike
Until someone shows that those cars are the faulty ones, then it must be that a car using oil at the rate of a litre every 1000/1500 miles do have wear issues, despite Porsche's self interested 'guidelines', and they aren't going to get better.
REALIST123 said:
Well, assuming you are still under warranty I would definitely be taking it up with the seller.
That was, indeed, my immediate reaction - "I've been sold a car with £10k rebuild bill looming and they're liable".However, on reflection, is it reasonable to go back with a car that is running fine (no knocking), has been diagnosed with a little engine wear (at average mileage for the year), and an independent expert is saying should be good for at least another 20k miles (or 3 years based on my usage)?
I'm sure they'd be polite and sympathetic, but I'm not sure I've got a claim here.
I always raise my eyebrows when somebody says that their engine uses NO oil. It seems unrealistic at best. For a Gen 1 997 there is around 0.3 of a litre between notches on the digital oil gauge so the reading staying constant does not necessarily mean you've used no oil. Hard driving using lots of revs normally results in increased oil consumption.
All of the above said a litre in 1500 miles does sound towards the upper bounds of what I'd expect for a healthy engine (unless you've been on track, in that case all bets are off).
All of the above said a litre in 1500 miles does sound towards the upper bounds of what I'd expect for a healthy engine (unless you've been on track, in that case all bets are off).
I think there is a very easy and enjoyable solution.... Really enjoy and drive the car hard... A lot (whilst under warrenty) and then if the problem gets worse then you can probably have good reason for a claim, if not you know that probably the engine is pretty solid and will continue using oil and running fine. Whoever said it would last for another 20,000 is probably guessing at best, simply too many variables to know
GregorFuk said:
I always raise my eyebrows when somebody says that their engine uses NO oil. It seems unrealistic at best. For a Gen 1 997 there is around 0.3 of a litre between notches on the digital oil gauge so the reading staying constant does not necessarily mean you've used no oil. Hard driving using lots of revs normally results in increased oil consumption.
All of the above said a litre in 1500 miles does sound towards the upper bounds of what I'd expect for a healthy engine (unless you've been on track, in that case all bets are off).
car is driven sensibly (for a 911) and never been trackedAll of the above said a litre in 1500 miles does sound towards the upper bounds of what I'd expect for a healthy engine (unless you've been on track, in that case all bets are off).
YoungMD said:
I think there is a very easy and enjoyable solution.... Really enjoy and drive the car hard... A lot (whilst under warrenty) and then if the problem gets worse then you can probably have good reason for a claim, if not you know that probably the engine is pretty solid and will continue using oil and running fine.
good advice and pretty much what I've been doing for last 6 months whilst monitoring the situation and the car is pretty consistently using 1 litre/1400 miles over last 4k milescan hasn't got worse, but given it's running towards end of warranty period, I felt the boroscope was wise to put my mind at rest....thing is, it hasn't
As some have stated already on this post excessive oil consumption is not good. It is also rather dubious that the manufacturer of an engine with an inherent design fault is also the "authority" on just how much oil burning is acceptable. It is also logical to reason that some identical engines use very little oil, leading one to ask the question why? Many other manufactures engines would be considered totally shagged if they were burning 6 litres of oil every 6000 miles! This is a standard cooking engine without turbo or supercharging and should not need to be nursed for the next 20K so as to avoid a rebuild!
The 911 has always been the pinnacle of Porsche's engineering and should be able to withstand being driven hard without fear. Why else would you buy one ?
The OP has a clear choice:- Drive the car gently at a rate of 4K miles a year to a point in the future that may result in a lot of personal expense - OR Drive the car like the devil possessed and hope that the engine expires whilst there is still some warranty on it!
It is also worth noting that older 996/997s are suffering huge depreciation because the trade and public are becoming increasingly aware of the potential for problems in a significant number of older cars with original engines. Yes, all cars depreciate but many are becoming difficult to sell at all! The fact that there are now some very significant engineering businesses established just to rebuild said engines should also ring a few alarm bells?
The choice is entirely yours...........................................
The 911 has always been the pinnacle of Porsche's engineering and should be able to withstand being driven hard without fear. Why else would you buy one ?
The OP has a clear choice:- Drive the car gently at a rate of 4K miles a year to a point in the future that may result in a lot of personal expense - OR Drive the car like the devil possessed and hope that the engine expires whilst there is still some warranty on it!
It is also worth noting that older 996/997s are suffering huge depreciation because the trade and public are becoming increasingly aware of the potential for problems in a significant number of older cars with original engines. Yes, all cars depreciate but many are becoming difficult to sell at all! The fact that there are now some very significant engineering businesses established just to rebuild said engines should also ring a few alarm bells?
The choice is entirely yours...........................................
Pugley said:
The OP has a clear choice:- Drive the car gently at a rate of 4K miles a year to a point in the future that may result in a lot of personal expense - OR Drive the car like the devil possessed and hope that the engine expires whilst there is still some warranty on it!
not really, the warranty expires in less than a month, hence needing to make a decision now on whether there's sufficient grounds for a claimnewboy997 said:
not really, the warranty expires in less than a month, hence needing to make a decision now on whether there's sufficient grounds for a claim
I fully understand your dilemma. Whist the manufacturer states that such comparatively oil consumption is acceptable, I suspect any case you have for a warranty claim will be undermined!I went through the same decision. The choice is keep it - or sell it while it has some value.
In the cold light of day, I think it's as simple as that.
That rate of oil consumption has been specified for decades by Porsche hasn't it? 964 was 1litre/1000km IIRC, so it isn't like Porsche have changed the criteria (much) for these engines.
I think the chances of a successful warranty claim for an engine that's working fine are close to nil, but if you're not thinking of moving it on anytime soon it might be worth speaking to Hartech about their low temp thermostat as that may reduce the rate at which your engine is wearing (it may make the finger-in-the-air 20,000 miles into 40,000 miles or more?).
I think the chances of a successful warranty claim for an engine that's working fine are close to nil, but if you're not thinking of moving it on anytime soon it might be worth speaking to Hartech about their low temp thermostat as that may reduce the rate at which your engine is wearing (it may make the finger-in-the-air 20,000 miles into 40,000 miles or more?).
thegoose said:
worth speaking to Hartech about their low temp thermostat as that may reduce the rate at which your engine is wearing (it may make the finger-in-the-air 20,000 miles into 40,000 miles or more?).
already done (with 3rd radiator as well) so, agreed, hoping I might get much more than 20k out of itlove the car otherwise so, warranty claim or not, it's a keeper
If you were planning on keeping the car long term before you knew of any problems. How about starting an engine slush fund now?
You said that you were philosophical, on buying the car regarding potential rebuilds. Maybe this is just an incentive to prepare for it now that the likelihood of the car needing one has perhaps increased.
You said that you were philosophical, on buying the car regarding potential rebuilds. Maybe this is just an incentive to prepare for it now that the likelihood of the car needing one has perhaps increased.
tb1880 said:
If you were planning on keeping the car long term before you knew of any problems. How about starting an engine slush fund now?
You said that you were philosophical, on buying the car regarding potential rebuilds. Maybe this is just an incentive to prepare for it now that the likelihood of the car needing one has perhaps increased.
LOL, does anyone run a 911 without a slush fund?You said that you were philosophical, on buying the car regarding potential rebuilds. Maybe this is just an incentive to prepare for it now that the likelihood of the car needing one has perhaps increased.
Unless, people tell me that I should be screaming at the dealer now which, as expected, they don't appear to be, my default plan is to enjoy the car for as long as I can and put £10k aside for a full re-build as and when the time arises
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