RS or GT: which wins/rewards more on track?

[granville]

Here's one which I don't recall being terribly flogged to death.

In the light of Johnny 'call me the bespectacled, bearded quack' Senna's recent and celebrated transition into primacy within the 911 firmament, a thought popped along for a quick cuppa.

Namely, what, in the esteemed considerations of the assembled denizens of planet pork, is the informed choice for road-going but track focused ultimation?

Is it, an RS, of classic, 964 or 993 association?

Or do we have to say GT3, mk1 or 2 or even, either generation of GT2?

Answers on a postcard but responses ito (a) likely lap time superiority and (b) relative ability to deliver copious globules of mightily adrenalised fun.

Danker.

[turbobloke]

Every Porsche boy knows that being blown is best.
Normal aspiration is just so...normal.
GT2 is this turbofan's ideal, preferably a little Ruf along the edges.
These aren't Porsches for the masses - isn't the weight difference a bit scaled up these days?

[dds1]

I would say 993 GT2 or 996 GT3RS. 996GT2 CAN be good around a track, but only with a fair bit of set up and suspension work.

[granville]

dds1 said:

I would say 993 GT2 or 996 GT3RS. 996GT2 CAN be good around a track, but only with a fair bit of set up and suspension work.

Good point, Squire: where does the GT3-RS rank in the hall of 911 road car track fame?

[lightweight]

Now that is a question but it will bring back the air v water arguement. With my head I would go for the 996 GT3(because it is simply quicker) and there are one or two cup cars on the road(I know paragon sold one last year). A well sorted 996 will be quicker than anything else all other things being equal.
That dosent mean that I dont rate the RS's some are exceptionly well developed and that is part of my point as cars get older more development goes into them as they pass to enthusiast owners.I may be wrong but there seem to be more and more fettled GT3's ariving at each track day I do.
If the decision was down to my hart looks would take over and there can be only one winner a 1970 911ST or rep 860-980kg 260-280Bhp do the maths.

[clubsport]

For the most part a 996Gt3 RS will be quickest with a standard Gt3 behind it....most of the mk1 Gt3 have now been bought up to scratch for track work.
It all depnds if you want to be the fastest out there, I find the older cars have more character on track, personal favourites are 911 3.2 CS, 964Rs and 993Rs.
if you set up the older Rs versions corrctly and on sticky rubber they shouldn't be far behind a well driven Gt3 and often get past the cheque book owners who have little idea.

I cancelled a Gt3RS order last year as i realised I didn't want the larger car and wouldn't drive it as much as the 993.
I know a couple of porschephiles who have both 993 RS & GT3Rs....if it came down to keeping one car they seemed to agree with my decision.

If outright track speed is what you want get a radical or R4/500 caterham,,if you want a Porsche get the GT3 RS.....If you want the most fun consider the older Porsche 911 derivatives.

** The above view was formed from real world personal experience rather than something overheard in the student halls or read in Evo **





>> Edited by clubsport on Friday 7th January 10:20

[dds1]

clubsport said:

** The above view was formed from real world personal experience rather than something overheard in the student halls or read in Evo **

Running the risk of a small flaming here, but here goes anyway.

I don't really see the point of spending £90k on a car that is mostly for the track, but which doesn't race. A Radical / Caterham r500 / atom 275 will all go round a track quicker and be vastly cheaper to both buy and run. I use my GT2 for only the very occasional trackday, I have the Caterham CSR260 on order, and when that comes will use that for track. For the cost of a set of new pads for the GT2, I can have 4 pads, and 4 new tyres and about £400 left over. it just doesn't really make that much sense to get a GT3RS, spend 10k on making it the perfect track car and not that driveable on the road, £1500 everytime you do a trackday and then get overtaken by a £25k beancan. HOw much is a race season in a proper cup car??

Obviously if you have unlimited / Huuge bank balance it makes a lot more sense, and each to their own etc, but it's always been a bit of a mystery to me..

[AndrewD]

Pretty much agree with you. My GT3 mk2 is a wonderful road car bought not so much because it can go very fast on track but because it is so totally alive when you drive it on the road. And it doesn't have all the "dedicated" gubbins like a cage so I can chuck bags in it and drive to France when I feel like it, with my other half.

Occasional track excursions are brilliant fun but I'd rather not chuck about a 90 grand RS, or even a 75 grand GT3 when the SR3 costs far less to have arguably even more fun.

But variety makes the world go round, like seeing RSs etc on track.

[Joe911]

derestrictor said:

Is it, an RS, of classic, 964 or 993 association?

All IMHO ...

Are you asking which is ultimately faster on a track - or a more rewarding, learning, driving expereience?

I wouldn't want to talk about ultimately quickest, as so many of these types of cars have been modified - suspension, engine, cages, whatever - and so whether a particularly modified GT3 is quicker than a standard GT2, or whetever, is pretty debatable.

I personally have almost no interest in the turbo cars, each to their own, I guess.

I would suggest most people with 964RS's run with standard engines - while most people with 993RS's tend to get them modified (as the quoted 300bhp wasn't really there).

Also, I am not personally very interested in owning a 993RS (clubsports I'm talking about here) as those that I know of have been extremely expensive (and very tricky - it seems to be a black art to add power to the engine AND get it to runs correctly) to get properly sorted for track use. Although it is true that once properly sorted, and I know of only one at the moment, they are fantastic (although more from a handling perspective than the engine).

My personal ranking for desirability (ascending order) would probably be:

964 RS (unmodified)
964 RS (modified engine and suspension)
996 GT3 MkI
996 GT3 MkII
996 GT3-MR (Manthey Racing)

Although if I did get my hands on a standard GT3 it would be modified by Manthey before you can say (20,000 Euros bitte)

Of course I'm sure there are others out there, but these are the ones I'm familiar with.

[clubsport]

Joe911 intersting on the 993 RS 300bhp not really being there....there can be problems with engine timing pushing the output down to 260bhp...once this is rectified they should be 5% around (+/-) the quoted output.
clearly i have an interest in the 993Rs, but do remember this is Porsche we are talking about here, would they sell a flagship sports model that they had proven on track that did not have the stated bhp....more than unlikely i would say.

[Joe911]

clubsport said:

Joe911 intersting on the 993 RS 300bhp not really being there....there can be problems with engine timing pushing the output down to 260bhp...once this is rectified they should be 5% around (+/-) the quoted output. clearly i have an interest in the 993Rs, but do remember this is Porsche we are talking about here, would they sell a flagship sports model that they had proven on track that did not have the stated bhp....more than unlikely i would say.

I understood that it was "common knowledge" that 993's (although it could be have been just RS's or even just the RS Clubsports) were down on the quoted power. I understood it to be a rare factory cockup - I don't know whether it only affected a few cars or whether it was a basic engine problem. It could also, of course, not be true - but the evidence I've seen does tend to stack up.

Again, I understood (possibly incorrectly), that the reason that 993 RS's engines (again I'm primarily talking Clubsports) got upgraded was firstly to get back to the factory quoted power, and then, of course to go further. I know of a couple that run with 350(ish)bhp.

I have seen and heard all sorts of stories of 993RS's that have been modified (by very pukka outfits) to have stalling problems, big holes in the power curve, etc. I've also seen how some claim you need the individual throttle bodies sometimes with and sometimes without the varioram(blah-techno-babble) thing installed. And, of course, it always seems to cost a fortune - eye watering numbers.

As you might work out - I'm not a engine techno-person, so I'm just reporting what one hears - I have no direct experience with modifying engines myself.

I'd be happy to be given the full story by someone in the know.

[clubsport]

Joe, the 993RS clubsport has the same engine output as the regular 993RS. There only differences in running gear are the single mass flywheel in the CS and a different gear ratio in 6th.

I don't know where you are hearing all of these things to report....but such widespread problems on CS are news to me. After all 300bhp out of a 3746cc lump is hardly pushing the envelope is it?

Is the heresay related to the RSR race versions perhaps?

[iguana]

Quite posibly this-

www.pistonheads.com/sales/detail.asp?i=34373&s=121

[993rsr]

What about 993gt2?

[GreigM]

dds1 said:

I don't really see the point of spending £90k on a car that is mostly for the track, but which doesn't race. A Radical / Caterham r500 / atom 275 will all go round a track quicker and be vastly cheaper to both buy and run.

Thats fine if you can afford to have 2 cars, but some of us can only finance one car and want both a fantastic road car and also something which is respectable on track - hence something like a GT3, the cars mentioned above don't qualify as road cars in reality.

[Joe911]

dds1 said:

I don't really see the point of spending £90k on a car that is mostly for the track, but which doesn't race. A Radical / Caterham r500 / atom 275 will all go round a track quicker and be vastly cheaper to both buy and run.

I disagree. MILE-FOR-MILE I don't think that a Radical (fabulous bit of kit that they are) would be cheaper to run - and I would imagine that's true for the Atom as well (maybe not the Caterham).

From people I know (or have seen) with Radicals, they are enormously fast, but they simply don't (maybe can't) put in the miles that a 911 will on track without a significant care and maintenance program that ends up costing a significant amount of time and money.

[dds1]

GreigM said:

dds1 said: I don't really see the point of spending £90k on a car that is mostly for the track, but which doesn't race. A Radical / Caterham r500 / atom 275 will all go round a track quicker and be vastly cheaper to both buy and run. Thats fine if you can afford to have 2 cars, but some of us can only finance one car and want both a fantastic road car and also something which is respectable on track - hence something like a GT3, the cars mentioned above don't qualify as road cars in reality.

Fair Enough Grieg, I see your point in that respect, I was more referring to the people who tune the likes of GT3RS into being near enough undriveable as a road car as well.

[dds1]

Joe911 said:

dds1 said: I don't really see the point of spending £90k on a car that is mostly for the track, but which doesn't race. A Radical / Caterham r500 / atom 275 will all go round a track quicker and be vastly cheaper to both buy and run. I disagree. MILE-FOR-MILE I don't think that a Radical (fabulous bit of kit that they are) would be cheaper to run - and I would imagine that's true for the Atom as well (maybe not the Caterham). From people I know (or have seen) with Radicals, they are enormously fast, but they simply don't (maybe can't) put in the miles that a 911 will on track without a significant care and maintenance program that ends up costing a significant amount of time and money.

Possibly for the radical, certainly not for the Atom / Caterham. The Atom uses the Honda VTEC unit, which is about as bulletproof as they come.

[Joe911]

dds1 said:

Possibly for the radical, certainly not for the Atom / Caterham. The Atom uses the Honda VTEC unit, which is about as bulletproof as they come.

OK, fair enough, but it's not just engine we're talking about is it - gearbox, clutch, drivetrain, steering system, suspension - plus how well all the bits are mounted on the chassis, etc. Isn't the problem with "kit cars" (and other low volume vehicles) that many of the components are individually exceptional, but it's how they're applied together that *can* introduce weakenesses often not discovered due to limited testing?

Maybe I'm jsut a cynical old 911 bigoted git

[dds1]

Joe911 said:

dds1 said: Possibly for the radical, certainly not for the Atom / Caterham. The Atom uses the Honda VTEC unit, which is about as bulletproof as they come. OK, fair enough, but it's not just engine we're talking about is it - gearbox, clutch, drivetrain, steering system, suspension - plus how well all the bits are mounted on the chassis, etc. Isn't the problem with "kit cars" (and other low volume vehicles) that many of the components are individually exceptional, but it's how they're applied together that *can* introduce weakenesses often not discovered due to limited testing? Maybe I'm jsut a cynical old 911 bigoted git

I can only speak from my own experiences, having raced caterhams in the past, yes they need stuff doing (and thats after about a big a thrashing as you can give a car) but it costs remarkably little..