997 Turbo....is it me??
Discussion
So been on the hunt for a decent 997 turbo for a while.....
Without getting into the whole manual vs tip/PDK debate, I was under the illusion that manuals have a so called premium on the auto boxes (which actually suited me fine as I was looking at a tip as I live in town (ease of being stuck in traffic with a tip....blah blah))
But either my timing for the hunt for this car is bad/I am going crazy or that premium doesn't actually exist....
Most of the manual cars I have been coming across over the last month or so are going for the same sort of prices as the tips (similiar spec/mileage etc)...
Am I missing something??
Of course, there is also the possibility that the market is softening....
Without getting into the whole manual vs tip/PDK debate, I was under the illusion that manuals have a so called premium on the auto boxes (which actually suited me fine as I was looking at a tip as I live in town (ease of being stuck in traffic with a tip....blah blah))
But either my timing for the hunt for this car is bad/I am going crazy or that premium doesn't actually exist....
Most of the manual cars I have been coming across over the last month or so are going for the same sort of prices as the tips (similiar spec/mileage etc)...
Am I missing something??
Of course, there is also the possibility that the market is softening....
Adam B said:
Or good manuals snapped up quickly for asking or close to, versus tips stick around longer and when they sell they are knocked down?
I didn't see much difference in asking but did in what went quickly
That's a really valid point....I didn't quite think of it that way - guess I haven't been looking that long....I didn't see much difference in asking but did in what went quickly
There is still a market for tips but it's an advantage if you want one, as they are less sought after, would expect to pay 2k less than equivalent manual personally but I was only after a manual.
If I was selling I know what I would ask and wouldn't feel I need to budge much in this market (black/black manual, low miles, decent spec)
If I was selling I know what I would ask and wouldn't feel I need to budge much in this market (black/black manual, low miles, decent spec)
Sebba said:
So been on the hunt for a decent 997 turbo for a while.....
Without getting into the whole manual vs tip/PDK debate, I was under the illusion that manuals have a so called premium on the auto boxes (which actually suited me fine as I was looking at a tip as I live in town (ease of being stuck in traffic with a tip....blah blah))
But either my timing for the hunt for this car is bad/I am going crazy or that premium doesn't actually exist....
Most of the manual cars I have been coming across over the last month or so are going for the same sort of prices as the tips (similiar spec/mileage etc)...
Am I missing something??
Of course, there is also the possibility that the market is softening....
I think the manuals vs. Tip/PDK thing is a bit overblown, biased due to the participants on this and similar sites.Without getting into the whole manual vs tip/PDK debate, I was under the illusion that manuals have a so called premium on the auto boxes (which actually suited me fine as I was looking at a tip as I live in town (ease of being stuck in traffic with a tip....blah blah))
But either my timing for the hunt for this car is bad/I am going crazy or that premium doesn't actually exist....
Most of the manual cars I have been coming across over the last month or so are going for the same sort of prices as the tips (similiar spec/mileage etc)...
Am I missing something??
Of course, there is also the possibility that the market is softening....
IIRC a very high percentage (>70%?) of Porsches are sold with automatics, either Tip, or now PDK.
I would expect about the same percentage of used car buyers or prospective buyers would prefer an automatic over a manual.
The PDK doesn't have the slip the Tip has and doesn't have the HP robbing torque converter. It takes the worry out of missing a gear and over revving a very expensive engine. The Turbo engine gains RPMs so quickly and the PDK is up to the task of shifting into 2nd without banging the engine off the rev limiter.
There is of course the obvious benefit available with an automatic transmission if one spends any time in traffic and it opens up the car to owners who may not be able to or want to drive a manual.
I think enough owners or prospective owners appreciate what a Tip/PDK brings to one of these cars that this tends to reduce or even eliminate any real price difference between manual and auto equipped cars.
If you want a manual, then look for one. If you want a Tip likewise look for one. Happy hunting.
Rockster said:
If you want a manual, then look for one. If you want a Tip likewise look for one. Happy hunting.
totally agree, but you are not allowing for the change in demographic between new £100k+ turbos and £40-55k used market. Becomes less a prestige buy and more the choice of car enthusiasts and the consequent relative shift to more involved feel of manual. I see the benefits of tip, especially as I live in London.Just a small example I know, but senior work colleague of mine buys a new 911 turbo every 2 years, he likes the badge and the 911 shape, and always turbos as they the top of the range in terms of pace/equipment/prestige. He is not a car or driving enthusiast, just wants a regular new cool toy without the hassle of extended warranties, MOTs or replacing worn parts. He always bought tips now PDK because he says they are easier to drive.
Versus me who could not justify buying a new one, so buy one when 5/6 years old, I have never been a fan of tips (I like PDK) so bought a manual. As I said only a small example but I suspect it is symptomatic of broader market. But good tips will still find buyers of course.
I agree with you - new about 70% were tips (in PH classifieds, 997 turbos up to 2009 - 22 of 61 are manual)
In used market I would (very vaguely) estimate demand is more 50/50
Therefore you have 50% hunting 30% of cars, hence there might be a premium.
Edited by Adam B on Thursday 18th June 13:01
Adam B said:
totally agree, but you are not allowing for the change in demographic between new £100k+ turbos and £40-55k used market. Becomes less a prestige buy and more the choice of car enthusiasts and the consequent relative shift to more involved feel of manual. I see the benefits of tip, especially as I live in London.
Spot on; the demographic changes as the cars get older. Having had a a Tip Turbo, i'd say the gearbox suits the Turbo better than the naturally aspirated cars. However, on reflection, it is still totally the wrong choice and if i can use a manual GT3 every day on the streets of London, so can you!
Only the very latest PDK boxes have emotion engineered into them. Otherwise, the auto options offered by the competition are considerably more rewarding to use.
hondansx said:
Spot on; the demographic changes as the cars get older.
Having had a a Tip Turbo, i'd say the gearbox suits the Turbo better than the naturally aspirated cars. However, on reflection, it is still totally the wrong choice and if i can use a manual GT3 every day on the streets of London, so can you!
Only the very latest PDK boxes have emotion engineered into them. Otherwise, the auto options offered by the competition are considerably more rewarding to use.
hmmm....you have just singled handily caused a dilemma for me - with a couple of manuals to choose from & no comparable tips, should i just go for a manual???Having had a a Tip Turbo, i'd say the gearbox suits the Turbo better than the naturally aspirated cars. However, on reflection, it is still totally the wrong choice and if i can use a manual GT3 every day on the streets of London, so can you!
Only the very latest PDK boxes have emotion engineered into them. Otherwise, the auto options offered by the competition are considerably more rewarding to use.
Sebba said:
hmmm....you have just singled handily caused a dilemma for me - with a couple of manuals to choose from & no comparable tips, should i just go for a manual???
drive both if you can, happy to give you a spin in a manual (with sports shifter) if you live close to mepersonally I am with Mr NSX, it is better in a turbo but still not good
Edited by Adam B on Thursday 18th June 14:13
Sebba said:
hondansx said:
Spot on; the demographic changes as the cars get older.
Having had a a Tip Turbo, i'd say the gearbox suits the Turbo better than the naturally aspirated cars. However, on reflection, it is still totally the wrong choice and if i can use a manual GT3 every day on the streets of London, so can you!
Only the very latest PDK boxes have emotion engineered into them. Otherwise, the auto options offered by the competition are considerably more rewarding to use.
hmmm....you have just singled handily caused a dilemma for me - with a couple of manuals to choose from & no comparable tips, should i just go for a manual???Having had a a Tip Turbo, i'd say the gearbox suits the Turbo better than the naturally aspirated cars. However, on reflection, it is still totally the wrong choice and if i can use a manual GT3 every day on the streets of London, so can you!
Only the very latest PDK boxes have emotion engineered into them. Otherwise, the auto options offered by the competition are considerably more rewarding to use.
As such, if you buy a manual car and find you can't handle it in the long term, it's a pretty safe financial gamble to take, because i can't see it losing money. You've also ticked a box: 911 Turbo - DONE!
The short version is stop being a fanny and get the manual
I didn't like the Tiptronic experience on the 997 turbo. The only impression that I was left with was of blistering speed, not involvement; it was a bit of a numbing driving experience. So I crossed the turbo off my list because I was told by the OPC salesman that virtually noone was buying new 997 turbos in manual, and that the manual really didn't suit the car. I can really understand why many tiptronic turbo owners moved them on in quick order.
When I finally decided that I'd have a go in a manual, and the OPC had a 2nd hand one to drive, it was a revelation, compared to the tip - a totally different driving experience for me. The manual is just sooooo nice (best I've ever had in any car) and the level of involvement is definitely much greater. Of course, there's the real risk of bouncing off the limiter if you're pressing on, but a big part of the fun is exploiting the power to the full without doing that.
Later, I drove PDK 997.2 turbo and turbo S, and turbo/s Cab, on various Porsche Experience days at Silverstone and that was another revelation. It's an incredible transmission and is really involving, unlike the tip. I still happily got back into my manual to drive home, but, if I really needed auto-type transmission, I wouldn't hesitate to go PDK turbo/s.
I'd reckon that the number of manuals out there will be tiny when compared to the tips/pdk; we just don't represent the normal buyers of 911 turbos.
When I finally decided that I'd have a go in a manual, and the OPC had a 2nd hand one to drive, it was a revelation, compared to the tip - a totally different driving experience for me. The manual is just sooooo nice (best I've ever had in any car) and the level of involvement is definitely much greater. Of course, there's the real risk of bouncing off the limiter if you're pressing on, but a big part of the fun is exploiting the power to the full without doing that.
Later, I drove PDK 997.2 turbo and turbo S, and turbo/s Cab, on various Porsche Experience days at Silverstone and that was another revelation. It's an incredible transmission and is really involving, unlike the tip. I still happily got back into my manual to drive home, but, if I really needed auto-type transmission, I wouldn't hesitate to go PDK turbo/s.
I'd reckon that the number of manuals out there will be tiny when compared to the tips/pdk; we just don't represent the normal buyers of 911 turbos.
Skrambles said:
hondansx said:
The short version is stop being a fanny and get the manual
Skrambles said:
I didn't like the Tiptronic experience on the 997 turbo. The only impression that I was left with was of blistering speed, not involvement; it was a bit of a numbing driving experience. So I crossed the turbo off my list because I was told by the OPC salesman that virtually noone was buying new 997 turbos in manual, and that the manual really didn't suit the car. I can really understand why many tiptronic turbo owners moved them on in quick order.
When I finally decided that I'd have a go in a manual, and the OPC had a 2nd hand one to drive, it was a revelation, compared to the tip - a totally different driving experience for me. The manual is just sooooo nice (best I've ever had in any car) and the level of involvement is definitely much greater. Of course, there's the real risk of bouncing off the limiter if you're pressing on, but a big part of the fun is exploiting the power to the full without doing that.
Later, I drove PDK 997.2 turbo and turbo S, and turbo/s Cab, on various Porsche Experience days at Silverstone and that was another revelation. It's an incredible transmission and is really involving, unlike the tip. I still happily got back into my manual to drive home, but, if I really needed auto-type transmission, I wouldn't hesitate to go PDK turbo/s.
I'd reckon that the number of manuals out there will be tiny when compared to the tips/pdk; we just don't represent the normal buyers of 911 turbos.
send your car to 9e for a pair of GT2 hybrid turbos and Europipe stage 2 zorst and you'll be amazed how much more interactive your turbo becomes with additional GT2 anti roll bar and lowering springs. This is how turbo should have left factory...even bigger difference than turbo vs manualWhen I finally decided that I'd have a go in a manual, and the OPC had a 2nd hand one to drive, it was a revelation, compared to the tip - a totally different driving experience for me. The manual is just sooooo nice (best I've ever had in any car) and the level of involvement is definitely much greater. Of course, there's the real risk of bouncing off the limiter if you're pressing on, but a big part of the fun is exploiting the power to the full without doing that.
Later, I drove PDK 997.2 turbo and turbo S, and turbo/s Cab, on various Porsche Experience days at Silverstone and that was another revelation. It's an incredible transmission and is really involving, unlike the tip. I still happily got back into my manual to drive home, but, if I really needed auto-type transmission, I wouldn't hesitate to go PDK turbo/s.
I'd reckon that the number of manuals out there will be tiny when compared to the tips/pdk; we just don't represent the normal buyers of 911 turbos.
IMI A said:
send your car to 9e for a pair of GT2 hybrid turbos and Europipe stage 2 zorst and you'll be amazed how much more interactive your turbo becomes with additional GT2 anti roll bar and lowering springs. This is how turbo should have left factory...even bigger difference than turbo vs manual
Europipe stage 2 has been on my "to do" list for a couple of years - my car's still under the Porsche warranty, but the moment that it runs out (in 2018!), I'll be getting the new exhaust. It must be monster with GT2 turbos!!
Skrambles said:
IMI A said:
send your car to 9e for a pair of GT2 hybrid turbos and Europipe stage 2 zorst and you'll be amazed how much more interactive your turbo becomes with additional GT2 anti roll bar and lowering springs. This is how turbo should have left factory...even bigger difference than turbo vs manual
Europipe stage 2 has been on my "to do" list for a couple of years - my car's still under the Porsche warranty, but the moment that it runs out (in 2018!), I'll be getting the new exhaust. It must be monster with GT2 turbos!!
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