993 or 964

[Jonathan DLP]

I'm sure that this topic has been done to death so apologies in advance but here goes anyway ....

I am considering my first 911 and would really appreciate some advice. First, a bit about what the car will be doing: I live near Canterbury and work in London. For the past five years I've been biking up and down but feel the need for a change so the car's primary role will be commuting about 130 miles per day in all weather.

I originally set my budget at around £16k which seemed to translate to 964. For the last couple of weeks have been reading the posts, trawling archives etc. on this and other sites and now have some feel for the pluses and minuses of this model. What I've also noticed is that the bottom end of 993 territory does not seem too far away so am considering upping the budget to £20k (whilst leaving some contingency for the odd 'surprise').

Can I (with the help of an independent engineer) really find a reliable 993 without significant issues at this price level (albeit that it would probably be LHD and 80k miles or up) or would I be better off sticking to a 'sorted' 964?

Thanks in advance

Jonathan

[softinthehead]

if youre happy with LHD then theres no reason why, with a good independent backing you, you shouldnt get a decent 993 for that sort of money, just. have you driven both? the 993 is a significantly more modern car whilst retaining much of the magical rawness of the early marque.
993s increasingly trade on their "last of the air cooled" cachet so prices are very stable, even rising a little for some desirable models (e,g C4S). Even at £20 you'll need both patience and luck. dealer prices will tend to start at around £21-22k for good LHD examples. try Fuchs or Oakhills who specialise in LHD

[mutt k]

Doing that sort of distance in and out of London, you might want to consider a tiptronic rather than manual!

[AJAX50]

You might also try Adrian Crawford. He knows 964's and 993's better than most and specialises in LHD imports. I've recently bought a 993 from him, he is a good man to deal with. Might be difficult to contact now as he is on some strange rally across the Sahara but should be back next week.

[domster]

Hmmm, 130 miles a day is a fair amount. The 993s drive really nicely and are more developed. The 964s are a little more bomb proof, but age counts against them. They also feel a little more agricultural than the 993.

I would suggest a 993 and go for a tiptronic LHD coupe. Try www.rsjsportscars.co.uk as Joel often has some left hook 993s in. He also has a nice cheap 964 that you could run into the ground and leave the remaining budget for wear items, but it just won't be that cheap piling the mileage on a (any) 911 as if it were a Vectra.

What about buying an E36 325i for 3k, hammering it into the ground, and then buying a 911 for special occasions. It could cost you 3k extra commuting in the 911 anyway so you will really just end up with a free second car after one year...

[johnny senna]

I rather like this. It's RHD, looks immaculate.

www.9mracing.co.uk/showcase/generated/62.html

It's pretty rare, lovely wide body shape, super colour.

>> Edited by johnny senna on Monday 28th February 17:20

[pesty]

Cant help with your question because I have never driven a 993, but what I can say is after recently buying a 964 I love it.

[verysideways]

domster said:

The 964s are a little more bomb proof

Errr, beg to differ? A 993 will cost you a lot less in maintenance than a 964 when you're piling on that sort of mileage.

Pitch an 80k mile 964 (RHD) and an 80k mile 993 (LHD) against each other for a year at 130 miles a day and see what costs you more to run (and probably depreciates more too).

VS

[Butzi]

verysideways said:

domster said: The 964s are a little more bomb proof Errr, beg to differ? A 993 will cost you a lot less in maintenance than a 964 when you're piling on that sort of mileage. Pitch an 80k mile 964 (RHD) and an 80k mile 993 (LHD) against each other for a year at 130 miles a day and see what costs you more to run (and probably depreciates more too). VS

Can't agree more. 993 is more reliable, better for your butt for daily long journey like that. Yrly servicing cost will be a fair bit less with that kind of daily mileage. After a few yrs servicing, I'd guess the difference in purchasing price would be covered by the servicing cost saved. Don't get me wrong, 964 is a great car if you get one that's sorted, but 993 is probably better if you can stretch the budget.

[domster]

verysideways said:

domster said: The 964s are a little more bomb proof Errr, beg to differ? A 993 will cost you a lot less in maintenance than a 964 when you're piling on that sort of mileage. Pitch an 80k mile 964 (RHD) and an 80k mile 993 (LHD) against each other for a year at 130 miles a day and see what costs you more to run (and probably depreciates more too). VS

When I say bombproof I'm talking about the bottom end of the engine, not regular maintenance.

I agree that day to day bills will be lower with a 993, but there is also more chance of something major going wrong. I know of a number of cranks that have gone on 993s.

Of course, most 964s will be need/have needed a tope end rebuild by now, so if it hasn't been done it will probably need it.

I still think that the 964 is more robustly engineered. The accountants got more involved with the 993.

[Jonathan DLP]

Many thanks for your replies. Some interesting thoughts, particularly the tiptronic suggestion (my clutch foot was certainly aching this morning queuing for the Blackwall Tunnel!) and Domster's suggestion that I look at something cheaper for the daily grind and reserve the 911 for special occasions. The idea of putting that sort of mileage on a 911, even if the car itself is engineered to take it, had concerned me and it certainly wouldn't be cheap looking at the sorts of annual service costs mentioned elsewhere on this forum.

Thanks again - I'm really enjoying getting up to speed on these cars (in my head if not on the road!).

Jonathan

[clubsport]

You have come out with some in the past Dom, but to imply that the 964 is better built than the 993 and the accountants influenced the 993 build??

The 964 may have special appeal to some, it has character as it was the last 911 model to have the original style front wings,,,by the time thay sorted out the problems with early 964, they got right with the 993. (talking regular C2/4 here and not RS).

The accountants and Japanese consultants were called in to assist as the 993 was not cost effective for them to build.

[domster]

My point stands re 993 vs 964 bottom end. Why do you think 996tts etc. have 964 part numbers on theirs?

The 993 bottom end was 'dumbed down' by the accountants. AFAIK this isn't my normal BS. Maybe someone like 9M will confirm?

[nel]

clubsport said:

You have come out with some in the past Dom, but to imply that the 964 is better built than the 993 and the accountants influenced the 993 build?? The 964 may have special appeal to some, it has character as it was the last 911 model to have the original style front wings,,,by the time thay sorted out the problems with early 964, they got right with the 993. (talking regular C2/4 here and not RS). The accountants and Japanese consultants were called in to assist as the 993 was not cost effective for them to build.

According to what I read, there were two projects in parallel. Weideker (sp?) set up a team of engineers to build the last air-cooled 911, with a fairly free rein to incorporate all their learning from over the years - call it a swansong. Hence the rear suspension redesign, hydraulic tappets, etc. of the 993 model range. I don't get the impression that they were very cost restrained.

At the same time Weideker worked with the Japanese consultants on design to build rationalisation and production streamlining - hence the 996 model range. As far as I know the Japanese consultants did not get involved with the 993 model, hence its 380 (?) hours build time compared to the 180 (?) hours for the 996.

[silver993tt]

nel said:

clubsport said: You have come out with some in the past Dom, but to imply that the 964 is better built than the 993 and the accountants influenced the 993 build?? The 964 may have special appeal to some, it has character as it was the last 911 model to have the original style front wings,,,by the time thay sorted out the problems with early 964, they got right with the 993. (talking regular C2/4 here and not RS). The accountants and Japanese consultants were called in to assist as the 993 was not cost effective for them to build. According to what I read, there were two projects in parallel. Weideker (sp?) set up a team of engineers to build the last air-cooled 911, with a fairly free rein to incorporate all their learning from over the years - call it a swansong. Hence the rear suspension redesign, hydraulic tappets, etc. of the 993 model range. I don't get the impression that they were very cost restrained. At the same time Weideker worked with the Japanese consultants on design to build rationalisation and production streamlining - hence the 996 model range. As far as I know the Japanese consultants did not get involved with the 993 model, hence its 380 (?) hours build time compared to the 180 (?) hours for the 996.

....and the very non-Japanese interior of the 993 compared with the 986/996....

[Marquis_Rex]

nel said:

clubsport said: You have come out with some in the past Dom, but to imply that the 964 is better built than the 993 and the accountants influenced the 993 build?? The 964 may have special appeal to some, it has character as it was the last 911 model to have the original style front wings,,,by the time thay sorted out the problems with early 964, they got right with the 993. (talking regular C2/4 here and not RS). The accountants and Japanese consultants were called in to assist as the 993 was not cost effective for them to build. According to what I read, there were two projects in parallel. Weideker (sp?) set up a team of engineers to build the last air-cooled 911, with a fairly free rein to incorporate all their learning from over the years - call it a swansong. Hence the rear suspension redesign, hydraulic tappets, etc. of the 993 model range. I don't get the impression that they were very cost restrained. At the same time Weideker worked with the Japanese consultants on design to build rationalisation and production streamlining - hence the 996 model range. As far as I know the Japanese consultants did not get involved with the 993 model, hence its 380 (?) hours build time compared to the 180 (?) hours for the 996.

More 450 hours vs 150 hours (for the rear engined Boxster )- from what I heard. The way cars SHOULD be built....

[silver993tt]

Marquis_Rex said:

nel said: clubsport said: You have come out with some in the past Dom, but to imply that the 964 is better built than the 993 and the accountants influenced the 993 build?? The 964 may have special appeal to some, it has character as it was the last 911 model to have the original style front wings,,,by the time thay sorted out the problems with early 964, they got right with the 993. (talking regular C2/4 here and not RS). The accountants and Japanese consultants were called in to assist as the 993 was not cost effective for them to build. According to what I read, there were two projects in parallel. Weideker (sp?) set up a team of engineers to build the last air-cooled 911, with a fairly free rein to incorporate all their learning from over the years - call it a swansong. Hence the rear suspension redesign, hydraulic tappets, etc. of the 993 model range. I don't get the impression that they were very cost restrained. At the same time Weideker worked with the Japanese consultants on design to build rationalisation and production streamlining - hence the 996 model range. As far as I know the Japanese consultants did not get involved with the 993 model, hence its 380 (?) hours build time compared to the 180 (?) hours for the 996. More 450 hours vs 150 hours (for the rear engined Boxster )- from what I heard. The way cars SHOULD be built....

....especially for the kind of money that they cost ....

[clubsport]

domster said:

My point stands re 993 vs 964 bottom end. Why do you think 996tts etc. have 964 part numbers on theirs? The 993 bottom end was 'dumbed down' by the accountants. AFAIK this isn't my normal BS. Maybe someone like 9M will confirm?

Are there a lot of problems with the 993 bottom end?
If there were you would think an internet forum, such as this would be the place to read them.
Would you honestly buy a car just because the bottom end of a car was WAY over engineered on a car rather than Considerably over engineered?

Keep it going Dom, it is getting more amusing by each successive post

[domster]

nel said:

I don't get the impression that they were very cost restrained.

So how come the GT1 didn't use a 993 bottom end if the engineers weren't cost restrained and could improve on the 964?

I am not defending the 964s many faults, I barely even own one these days and I happen to find the 993 better to drive in Carrera guise and better looking in RS guise. The 993 is a far better car in many ways. But the 964 was, from what I've read over the years, the last truly over-engineered Porsche. Hence the 964 bottom end being used to this day. I know of cranks snapping in 993s that haven't been over-revved or abused. That is the way they built them, hydraulic tappets or no hydraulic tappets.

Besides, the tappets were more of a service point. Everyone was putting them in cars at that time because they didn't need shimming/adjustment like the 964 ones. It was to make them cheaper to run more by saving an hour's labour at service time.

Don't knock the 964s if you've got a 993. Their engines are more tuneable in standard guise, have a stronger bottom end and the 993 wouldn't exist without them

[domster]

clubsport said:

Are there a lot of problems with the 993 bottom end? Keep it going Dom, it is getting more amusing by each successive post

I have heard of more instances of failure than with the 964. Yes, it is the difference between 'engineering fit for purpose' and 'over engineering'.

I do my best to entertain, don't I? If the bottom end of your RS goes pop, you can always buy the Baron's off me at a good price.