CSL vs GT3RS again
Discussion
These guys seem to have a different view
www.bm3w.co.uk/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=293358&an=0&page=0#293358
www.bm3w.co.uk/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=293358&an=0&page=0#293358
(on video - he let me by in the end). A good driver in a GT3RS around Bedford will certainly be quicker than in a CSL, but the difference will vary depending on the circuit. Much depends on driver ability but it was an excellent sparring session and everyone seemed to enjoy the friendly banter when back in the pits. Apart from the 3-4 car length difference in speed down the main straight, the CSL is mainly losing out in terms of body roll and overworking the front tyres. With greater roll stiffness and a more neutral-oversteer bias things could get really interesting. Mmmm... 
Steve Davies
M3 CSL with the big AP brakes
>> Edited by DoctorD on Saturday 26th March 13:35
Steve Davies
M3 CSL with the big AP brakes
>> Edited by DoctorD on Saturday 26th March 13:35
m12_nathan said:
Rico - were you at bedford yesturday then? Do you have any more pics? My reg ends in EFX, was that my car in the pic?
I was. The car in that pic ends in NTB. There was another that ended in SMG that I've got quite a few pics of. Annoyingly I don't think I've got any of you
rico said:
Rico - were you at bedford yesturday then? Do you have any more pics? My reg ends in EFX, was that my car in the pic?
I was. The car in that pic ends in NTB. There was another that ended in SMG that I've got quite a few pics of. Annoyingly I don't think I've got any of you
Mine was the one ending in SMG.
Hi all,
The car ending in NTB was mine. I would like to thank the driver of the GT3 RS that I passed/was let passed (whatever) for a great couple of high speed laps. Just did not have enough grunt to get by you on the straight when you indicated right.
I must say your car looks great (from behind as that is what I saw most of the time) I am still polishing the rubber marks off of my car.
As a Porsche fan I was amazed in how little their is between the two cars...
Look forward to future track days... for more of the same....
The car ending in NTB was mine. I would like to thank the driver of the GT3 RS that I passed/was let passed (whatever) for a great couple of high speed laps. Just did not have enough grunt to get by you on the straight when you indicated right.
I must say your car looks great (from behind as that is what I saw most of the time) I am still polishing the rubber marks off of my car.
As a Porsche fan I was amazed in how little their is between the two cars...
Look forward to future track days... for more of the same....
www.justgofaster.com/gallery/gallery/justgofaster/Bedford050325.wmv
Right click and save as - some footage of CSL chasing GT3RS and following a friend in his MG [
]
Right click and save as - some footage of CSL chasing GT3RS and following a friend in his MG [
]
Nigel
I was driving the RS that you followed and was impressed with the pace of the CS, but not surprised after seeing Steve D follow Steve R round last year.
I came into the pits after the last lap only to have to go straight back out for another cool down lap as the rear pads were smoking.
Find me next time for some more of the same and I will do the filming.
Robin C
PS please can I have my tyres back
I was driving the RS that you followed and was impressed with the pace of the CS, but not surprised after seeing Steve D follow Steve R round last year.
I came into the pits after the last lap only to have to go straight back out for another cool down lap as the rear pads were smoking.
Find me next time for some more of the same and I will do the filming.
Robin C
PS please can I have my tyres back
Based on the fact that I am confident that Steve D is a very capable driver and that his car is basically standard (?), I would estimated that a GTRS is approximately 2.5 - 3 seconds quicker on the Bedford GT if driven by a comperable driver. That probably equates to 1 - 2 seconds for a MK2 and MK1 GT3. That is a closer margin than I thought and a testiment to what a good car the CSL really is. Steve, do you have any data from Bedford GT? my data is showing a 2.39.1 with 2 corners spoiled in traffic so say 2.38.5. My car is fitted with no standard suspension which equates to 1.5 seconds so the yard stick is 2.40 I would be interested in the comparisons?
Following a few CSl's it appeared that they pitched considerably under braking, had quite a soft platform and appeared quite well balanced but tended to scrub off quite a bit of speed due to the soft nature of the chasis.
Fantasic car for the money.
Steve R
Following a few CSl's it appeared that they pitched considerably under braking, had quite a soft platform and appeared quite well balanced but tended to scrub off quite a bit of speed due to the soft nature of the chasis.
Fantasic car for the money.
Steve R
slim_boy_fat said:
Yes but i wonder what a standard M3 with cup tyres would lap in? Probably only a second ot two at most more than the CSL.
Value for money a second hand M3 for £25k and £3k brakes and suspention would be a great option...
No, No, No. It doesn't work that way! I owned three E46 M3s before the CSL and tracked them all and the gulf was 'huge'. I drove my CSL on ordinary Bridgestone S-03 tyres a few weeks ago at Combe and was passing other CSLs on Cup tyres, so R-spec tyres doesn't suddenly turn you into a hero. The Cup tyres only provide a noticeable difference in terms of braking and front-end turn in. I've posted this info on the BM3W forum back in 2003 when EVO magazine did a proper back-to-back test of a CSL with an M3 both on Continental road tyres. The difference was something like 5 seconds. You cannot underestimate the difference 'weight' makes to any car when on a track. In practice when the german magazine Auto Motor und Sport weighed a CSL and M3 (in manual guise) they found a weight difference of 150kg. If you take 150kg of weight from an M3 then add another 30 or more hp and add appropriate tyres then you'll be in the ball park.
It's a bit like saying a 996 C2 will lap as quickly as a GT3RS provided you put Pirelli Corsas on it. Err.... No!
steve rance said:
Based on the fact that I am confident that Steve D is a very capable driver and that his car is basically standard (?), I would estimated that a GTRS is approximately 2.5 - 3 seconds quicker on the Bedford GT if driven by a comperable driver. That probably equates to 1 - 2 seconds for a MK2 and MK1 GT3. That is a closer margin than I thought and a testiment to what a good car the CSL really is. Steve, do you have any data from Bedford GT? my data is showing a 2.39.1 with 2 corners spoiled in traffic so say 2.38.5. My car is fitted with no standard suspension which equates to 1.5 seconds so the yard stick is 2.40 I would be interested in the comparisons?
Following a few CSl's it appeared that they pitched considerably under braking, had quite a soft platform and appeared quite well balanced but tended to scrub off quite a bit of speed due to the soft nature of the chasis.
Fantasic car for the money.
Steve R
Thanks Steve. My car just has the big brakes (which equates with those on the GT3) and a few more horses due to 100 cell cats, otherwise it's standard. I haven't put a data logger on around Bedford but I would say there's probably a gap of around 1-2 seconds if compared to a GT3RS that's running on standard suspension. I've never actually been left behind around Bedford, I just can't close the gap which gradually stretches by a second or so every lap (i.e. a few car lengths). I haven't found a Mk1 GT3 to be quicker (usually the opposite), infact the only GT3s that have ever pulled away are the GT3RS or modified GT3s (like Russel's). Around somewhere like Donington though the gap is even smaller since it plays to the CSLs strengths of balance and speed through fast corners.
The CSL is undeniably slower than a GT3 Mk2/GT3RS in a straight line (although identical to a GT3 Mk1) and whilst there's more body roll which overheats the outside tyre and can necessitate a pause before getting on the power, the softness makes it very predictible and therefore easier to be right on the limit than the more stiffly set up GT3.
Ultimately the data that we collected from Donington showed a 2-3 second improvement in lap times just by cornerweighting the CSL on Bilstein PSS9 suspension and fitting wider front tyres (265 width all round).
At the end of the day the CSL uses a 3.2 litre engine compared to the GT3's 3.6 litres, so what it gains in chassis balance it will lose in outright torque.
p.s. the CSLs you were following were all fully standard CSLs with OEM brakes and geometry settings the way Munich decreed. In practice the front end camber needs to be greater than -2 degrees (rather than the 1.25 they come with) which helps a lot with stability under braking and turn in. (-3 degrees is even better though...
) >> Edited by DoctorD on Monday 28th March 18:09
m12_nathan said:
www.justgofaster.com/gallery/gallery/justgofaster/Bedford050325.wmv
Right click and save as - some footage of CSL chasing GT3RS and following a friend in his MG [
Nice one Nathan. Looks a great track.
Could you not get past the Rover ???
Rick
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