Discussion
I’d have a budget of £30k to purchase a 997 next year and wondered if it’s possible to run one and service/maintain it yourself.
My background as a maintenance engineer and having an old school mechanic father means we have always looked after our own cars.
I’d be concerned about engine issues on purchase,but looking after it yourself would probably mean a Porsche warranty to cover this is a waste of time.
The car would cover no more than 3000 miles a year as it’s mainly a fine weather toy, but would get used once a week at least.
As a Current Tvr owner I’m not a stranger to maintaining awkward cars, and prefer to service them once a year.
I’d also like to know if they will fit in a standard single garage, the Chimaera does easily.
Any advice is much appreciated.
My background as a maintenance engineer and having an old school mechanic father means we have always looked after our own cars.
I’d be concerned about engine issues on purchase,but looking after it yourself would probably mean a Porsche warranty to cover this is a waste of time.
The car would cover no more than 3000 miles a year as it’s mainly a fine weather toy, but would get used once a week at least.
As a Current Tvr owner I’m not a stranger to maintaining awkward cars, and prefer to service them once a year.
I’d also like to know if they will fit in a standard single garage, the Chimaera does easily.
Any advice is much appreciated.
I was about to put up a similar post so i will be following this with interest as i also am after a weekend fun/toy and have been looking at a Cayman or 997...
I have been told to have some contingency so i would keep up to £5k per yr set aside.
I have been told to have some contingency so i would keep up to £5k per yr set aside.
Edited by baliongo on Sunday 26th August 09:55
I’m doing similar on a 996. Prob only things I wouldnt tackle are engine / gearbox rebuilds. Also I’m having stamp services done at specialist.
Since last October done 4 discs / pads, coil packs & plugs, 4 shocks & springs, front brake pipes / hoses, steering rack rigid pipes, exhaust flange bolts (manifold to do) and a host of other niggly fault fixes - petrol cap lock, engine compartment fan relay fell out etc etc.
I was helping dad service cars from the age of 11 some 40+ years ago and have built, maintained and upgraded a caterham seven so am comfortable on the spanners.
With your experience its all doable so dont be afraid of the badge. I’m taking photo’s of everything I do and am keeping receipts too.
Go for it!
Ian
Since last October done 4 discs / pads, coil packs & plugs, 4 shocks & springs, front brake pipes / hoses, steering rack rigid pipes, exhaust flange bolts (manifold to do) and a host of other niggly fault fixes - petrol cap lock, engine compartment fan relay fell out etc etc.
I was helping dad service cars from the age of 11 some 40+ years ago and have built, maintained and upgraded a caterham seven so am comfortable on the spanners.
With your experience its all doable so dont be afraid of the badge. I’m taking photo’s of everything I do and am keeping receipts too.
Go for it!
Ian
baliongo said:
I was about to put up a similar post so i will be following this with interest as i also am after a weekend fun/toy and have been looking at a Cayman or 997...
I have been told to have some contingency so i would keep up to £5k per yr set aside.
I too have considered both but I’m not 100% on the cayman, I’ve always preferred the old school 911 look if that makes any sense!I have been told to have some contingency so i would keep up to £5k per yr set aside.
Edited by baliongo on Sunday 26th August 09:55
I can’t see why you would need £5k a year to keep one running, maybe I’m being naive.
Belle427 said:
I too have considered both but I’m not 100% on the cayman, I’ve always preferred the old school 911 look if that makes any sense!
I can’t see why you would need £5k a year to keep one running, maybe I’m being naive.
I too think £5k may be a little overboard but id rather be prepared for the worse...tinkering with a Porsche seems a probability so exhaust/suspension etc could eat into the buffer from the outset.I can’t see why you would need £5k a year to keep one running, maybe I’m being naive.
I had plans to buy a new 718 Cayman but the lure of the 997 is a strong one so i am still unsure..
Edited by baliongo on Sunday 26th August 10:32
Increase your budget and aim for a 997.2 2008 onwards which start at around £36k. You remove the risk of the engine eating itself which if you do a search for 997 bore scoring will explain what the potential risks are. Get one with a Porsche warranty and you are good to go. Get one without and spend £2K putting one on and you should have two years hassle free motoring. I have had my 997.2 for just over 12 months and its cost me fuel and a non mandatory oil service. I had the amplifier replaced under warranty which would have cost me several hundreds of pounds to replace outside the warranty.
Decide what is important to you in regards to Engine, Colour, Gearbox and options and then decide where you are willing to compromise. I wanted a manual, red car with sports seats and sports exhaust. It took me 18 months. If you want black or silver then you wont have to wait that long because 80% of cars available are either black or silver.
Contrary to what other people may say the 3.6 car has more than enough power and grunt for UK roads so don't discount it.
Decide what is important to you in regards to Engine, Colour, Gearbox and options and then decide where you are willing to compromise. I wanted a manual, red car with sports seats and sports exhaust. It took me 18 months. If you want black or silver then you wont have to wait that long because 80% of cars available are either black or silver.
Contrary to what other people may say the 3.6 car has more than enough power and grunt for UK roads so don't discount it.
I am searching in the silver / grey 997.2 2008 / 2009 Cab market currently and it surprised me that there are relatively few cars available and those that are have really held their value (no doubt because of the engine issues already mentioned).
There also seem to be quite a few white ones (maybe a 2009 thing)...
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
This is the kind of thing catching my eye at the moment. Sadly my max budget is £30k tops.
Are we saying all cars before 2008 are a bit of a minefield and would benefit from an engine rebuild?
This is the kind of thing catching my eye at the moment. Sadly my max budget is £30k tops.
Are we saying all cars before 2008 are a bit of a minefield and would benefit from an engine rebuild?
Yes you can definitely maintain this yourself. The main issues are that sometimes you wish you gave the job to someone else to do... the packaging at the rear is often "challenging" and what should be a straightforward job in any other vehicle becomes a right pain due to access constraints. Jacking up the rear is also interesting - I made myself a lifting bar for the purpose, as the jacking points themselves are the only safe place to place jack stands (buy jacking point "pucks" from Ebay, btw, too) Other than that - get yourself a Porsche-specific diagnostic tool to deal with any error codes etc and check health generally.
Belle427 said:
Are we saying all cars before 2008 are a bit of a minefield and would benefit from an engine rebuild?
YesI've seen some cars listed on their 3rd engine with sensible mileage. Some ads don't mention warranty replacements.
The 3.8 is the riskiest of them all as it has bigger pistons / bores and less meat in between them.
It's the same basic engine on all boxster, cayman and 911 cars. They all have the same flaws or weak points although some are slightly less risky due to subtle differences.
This does not apply to the gt3, gt2 and turbo 911 which have a completely different engine.
That's why I bought a very early 996. It's engine is a little less likely to grenade.
I bought one which had it's engine recently rebuilt and had new rads, suspension, clutch and other bits.
Then I spent 2 grand on pipes and tubes. Then the gearbox imploded. They are 10 grand new so I bought a used box and I'm still motoring.
So if you can stretch to a gen 2 where there are no engine woes I'd recommend you do. An engine rebuild is anything from 4 to 14 grand depending on what you have done to bodge it or future proof it.
If you buy a newer car then you might not need new shocks, suspension arms, rads, condensers, clutch, gearbox, brake pipes, power steering pipes, water cooling pipes, cats, heat shields and whatever else.
A 997 is definitely a car you can maintain yourself if you're useful with the spanners, none of it is rocket science. I find getting the car in the air is the worst part of doing any work on them!
As for 997.1's I'd be looking for one with a full Hartech rebuilt engine, with that work done they're pretty bullet proof.
I bought mine (a 2007 C2S) with a fully rebuilt Hartech engine (£13k's worth) that had covered 30,000 miles since the rebuild. It still pulls like a train, sounds glorious and uses virtually no oil, yet it cost £7k less than your budget. Having said that in the six months I've owned it I've replaced the discs, pads, wear sensors, clips and pins, had the wheels refurbished and a new set of tyres fitted. It's had a new steering pump, alternator freewheel pulley and oil separator along with various service items and a few smaller bits and pieces. I've had the PCM upgraded to the latest Kenwood double din head unit and a dashcam fitted. With all this work the car now has no faults and is exactly where I want it to be but still comes in under your budget (which incidentally was my original budget).
The 3.8 litre 997.1's undoubtably do bore score more than any other variant but I'd love to see empirical evidence of what the figures actually are for failure rates. With this in mind it would be daft not to go for one with a Hartech power plant, it took me 8 months to find mine but they are out there.
As for 997.1's I'd be looking for one with a full Hartech rebuilt engine, with that work done they're pretty bullet proof.
I bought mine (a 2007 C2S) with a fully rebuilt Hartech engine (£13k's worth) that had covered 30,000 miles since the rebuild. It still pulls like a train, sounds glorious and uses virtually no oil, yet it cost £7k less than your budget. Having said that in the six months I've owned it I've replaced the discs, pads, wear sensors, clips and pins, had the wheels refurbished and a new set of tyres fitted. It's had a new steering pump, alternator freewheel pulley and oil separator along with various service items and a few smaller bits and pieces. I've had the PCM upgraded to the latest Kenwood double din head unit and a dashcam fitted. With all this work the car now has no faults and is exactly where I want it to be but still comes in under your budget (which incidentally was my original budget).
The 3.8 litre 997.1's undoubtably do bore score more than any other variant but I'd love to see empirical evidence of what the figures actually are for failure rates. With this in mind it would be daft not to go for one with a Hartech power plant, it took me 8 months to find mine but they are out there.
a 997 is a bit wider and longer than a chim. I have a Tamora which fits easily into a 12` x 21` (ok slightly bigger than a) single garage. the porker is, well, porkier; so more of a squeeze. if you buy a coupe, they'll sit in the rain if you need them to. I know of people who store them in standard single garages.
I set up an alert for the word "hartech" when I bought mine (actually via PH ads).
I like to tinker so have replaced starter motor & alternator in recent time- discs are on the to-do list.
plenty of friendly info & advice also available via http://911uk.com/viewforum.php?f=7.
good luck in your quest
I set up an alert for the word "hartech" when I bought mine (actually via PH ads).
I like to tinker so have replaced starter motor & alternator in recent time- discs are on the to-do list.
plenty of friendly info & advice also available via http://911uk.com/viewforum.php?f=7.
good luck in your quest
Belle427 said:
My background as a maintenance engineer and having an old school mechanic father means we have always looked after our own cars.
I think TVR parts are much more cheaper than Porsche, and they are much easy to work on. Porsche 997/996 and boxster cayman engines are so tight quite difficult to work on them. My dad had an early 997.1 for a few years from new, some bills were massive and needed an engine rebuild just before the warranty expired. I did also considered buying one a few years ago, as you say its minefield out there and gave up. Most of them already had engine replaced under-warranty or some suspicious history with them. From my own research and, owning 986 for a few years I would not touch any of these first water-cooled 911 cars. I could suggest get a boxster or cayman (986 or 987),although similar engine issues, they are super bargain now. After a few years if you think you can work on them easily, you can get a 997.1 and do the work by yourself, but the engine design itself is problematic basically. (inadequate cooling, lubrication, IMS, bore-scoring and etc...) You can check 911 uk forum, 997 section, full of members with good advice (and expensive rebuild stories)
ooid said:
Belle427 said:
My background as a maintenance engineer and having an old school mechanic father means we have always looked after our own cars.
I think TVR parts are much more cheaper than Porsche, and they are much easy to work on. Porsche 997/996 and boxster cayman engines are so tight quite difficult to work on them. My dad had an early 997.1 for a few years from new, some bills were massive and needed an engine rebuild just before the warranty expired. I did also considered buying one a few years ago, as you say its minefield out there and gave up. Most of them already had engine replaced under-warranty or some suspicious history with them. From my own research and, owning 986 for a few years I would not touch any of these first water-cooled 911 cars. I could suggest get a boxster or cayman (986 or 987),although similar engine issues, they are super bargain now. After a few years if you think you can work on them easily, you can get a 997.1 and do the work by yourself, but the engine design itself is problematic basically. (inadequate cooling, lubrication, IMS, bore-scoring and etc...) You can check 911 uk forum, 997 section, full of members with good advice (and expensive rebuild stories)
Belle427 said:
Thanks for the advice, looks like they can be a difficult buy if you have to wait around for a rebuilt engine in a gen 1.
What changed on the gen 2 models to make the engines more reliable?
It's a completely different engine. What changed on the gen 2 models to make the engines more reliable?
You've heard of the IMS stories. Well that's the Intermediate shaft. The newer engine doesn't even have an intermediate shaft. That's just one difference. The newer one is also more powerful too.
First - Yes, it's possible to do a fair amount of work on a 997 yourself with the right tools. I've not done too much on mine, but what I have done - Discs and pads on all four corners, new battery, front bumper removal to fit grills - has all been a straightforward exercise once you've properly read up on what you're about to do. I'm also gearing up to change my spark plugs as well as the coil pack shields as mine look like sieves.
(the Pelican Parts website has excellent how-tos on a lot of 997 / 996 maintenance tasks) I'd also suggest investing in a 'jack pad' which goes between your trolley jack and the jacking point, making it much easier to lift the car, and a wheel removal tool for the back wheels as they're not only wide but surprisingly heavy, and you don't want that falling off as you undo the bolts.
Second - Yes, it'll fit fine in a standard garage. I use the nearside mirror to get as close to the left side of the door as much as possible, then wind the window down to get out. I have a piece of thick carpet on the wall to protect the door, then I just hold the lock button down on the key which both locks the car and winds the window back up again.
Third - Buying a Gen1 997 isn't the minefield all the doom-mongers will have you believe. Do your research properly, and insist on a bore-scope of an engine ahead of a potential purchase if you're unsure about it. Any dealer worth their salt will be happy to do this, and / or allow an independent inspection if you wanted to get one done. Also worth doing is comparing a cars history against the MOT Checker, to ensure that if a car has failed or had advisories, that they've been acted on quickly - this reassures you that previous owners have been treating the car correctly.
A lot of issues with 997 engines are caused by people using the car for short journeys on an infrequent basis, and thinking that servicing every two years is sufficient enough to maintain their car. A 997 loves a good spanking, but proper warming-up of the engine takes at least 15 minutes, as almost everyone forgets that the primary source of cooling in an engine is oil, not coolant, and a 997 isn't warmed up until the oil temp needle hits 90deg at least, by which time some people are turning their cars off again which causes an accelerated death of the oils ability to do its job. If there's any yellowish gunk in the Oil filler cap, it's a dead giveaway for a car used like that. I tend not to open mine up beyond 4k rpm until it's properly warm - and definitely not under full throttle - and never use a gear higher than 4th in 30 or 40mph limits as this risks 'lugging' the engine.
Mine is fully serviced on the button every two years, but the oil is changed every year regardless of how many miles I've done. I've no idea why anyone would think changing the oil every two years is a good idea in any car, let alone one with the performance potential of a 911.
Bear in mind that the youngest Gen1 997 is now almost 12 years old, so is likely to have had a number of components replaced regardless of mileage - Air-con rads, Drop links, Alternator, Air-con compressor, Suspension Arms, Bushes etc. and seeing evidence of this with either invoices or receipts is more reassurance of a caring owner.
Lastly - The 997C4s you linked in an earlier post looks like a cracking car. It's certainly had good money spent on it recently as well as having had the 'kitchen sink' approach from the first owner insofar as options are concerned. For that price I'd expect at least a years GOOD warranty, not the six or three months that some dealers provide.
(the Pelican Parts website has excellent how-tos on a lot of 997 / 996 maintenance tasks) I'd also suggest investing in a 'jack pad' which goes between your trolley jack and the jacking point, making it much easier to lift the car, and a wheel removal tool for the back wheels as they're not only wide but surprisingly heavy, and you don't want that falling off as you undo the bolts.
Second - Yes, it'll fit fine in a standard garage. I use the nearside mirror to get as close to the left side of the door as much as possible, then wind the window down to get out. I have a piece of thick carpet on the wall to protect the door, then I just hold the lock button down on the key which both locks the car and winds the window back up again.
Third - Buying a Gen1 997 isn't the minefield all the doom-mongers will have you believe. Do your research properly, and insist on a bore-scope of an engine ahead of a potential purchase if you're unsure about it. Any dealer worth their salt will be happy to do this, and / or allow an independent inspection if you wanted to get one done. Also worth doing is comparing a cars history against the MOT Checker, to ensure that if a car has failed or had advisories, that they've been acted on quickly - this reassures you that previous owners have been treating the car correctly.
A lot of issues with 997 engines are caused by people using the car for short journeys on an infrequent basis, and thinking that servicing every two years is sufficient enough to maintain their car. A 997 loves a good spanking, but proper warming-up of the engine takes at least 15 minutes, as almost everyone forgets that the primary source of cooling in an engine is oil, not coolant, and a 997 isn't warmed up until the oil temp needle hits 90deg at least, by which time some people are turning their cars off again which causes an accelerated death of the oils ability to do its job. If there's any yellowish gunk in the Oil filler cap, it's a dead giveaway for a car used like that. I tend not to open mine up beyond 4k rpm until it's properly warm - and definitely not under full throttle - and never use a gear higher than 4th in 30 or 40mph limits as this risks 'lugging' the engine.
Mine is fully serviced on the button every two years, but the oil is changed every year regardless of how many miles I've done. I've no idea why anyone would think changing the oil every two years is a good idea in any car, let alone one with the performance potential of a 911.
Bear in mind that the youngest Gen1 997 is now almost 12 years old, so is likely to have had a number of components replaced regardless of mileage - Air-con rads, Drop links, Alternator, Air-con compressor, Suspension Arms, Bushes etc. and seeing evidence of this with either invoices or receipts is more reassurance of a caring owner.
Lastly - The 997C4s you linked in an earlier post looks like a cracking car. It's certainly had good money spent on it recently as well as having had the 'kitchen sink' approach from the first owner insofar as options are concerned. For that price I'd expect at least a years GOOD warranty, not the six or three months that some dealers provide.
Evening,
rather than running on rumour - I bought a used 997.1 targa 4s which I thought was a great car and sucked up the relatively large costs to put minor things right on the basis of it being a 'performance car'. I bought it at a reasonable price meaning that even after the money I spent tidying it up it was probably cheaper than buying one from a main dealer. on this basis on a used car and the age / mileage they will have a couple of grand a year can be normal.
decided a Porsche was a waste of money and one car would do. two months later trawled GB for a 997.2 with the options I wanted in a non standard colour. ended up buying a red one on my doorstep from Porsche. other than one minor service this car has not cost a bean.
my view is you can buy a car outside of Porsche cheaper and put a few quid aside and you may not need it or buy with a Porsche warranty and have peace of mind for at least two years.
I'm in the position where I now need to change my 997.2 before the end of the year for a diesel (prob Panamera) and will be looking at a used car from Porsche again.
B
rather than running on rumour - I bought a used 997.1 targa 4s which I thought was a great car and sucked up the relatively large costs to put minor things right on the basis of it being a 'performance car'. I bought it at a reasonable price meaning that even after the money I spent tidying it up it was probably cheaper than buying one from a main dealer. on this basis on a used car and the age / mileage they will have a couple of grand a year can be normal.
decided a Porsche was a waste of money and one car would do. two months later trawled GB for a 997.2 with the options I wanted in a non standard colour. ended up buying a red one on my doorstep from Porsche. other than one minor service this car has not cost a bean.
my view is you can buy a car outside of Porsche cheaper and put a few quid aside and you may not need it or buy with a Porsche warranty and have peace of mind for at least two years.
I'm in the position where I now need to change my 997.2 before the end of the year for a diesel (prob Panamera) and will be looking at a used car from Porsche again.
B
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff