The brave new world of EV Porsches
Discussion
In typically Germanic style Porsche have made some very aggressive business decisions in their 70th year
The main driver for these is of course the ridiculous EU 95 kg/CO2 FLEET average emissions which all car companies have to comply with or face crippling fines.
Porsche intend to avoid all car emitted emissions completely by going totally electric long term, which involves betting the companies future and 6 billion Euros on Porsche Production 4.0 starting with the Taycan.
Not only that but the Taycan is a 4 door sports saloon in the style of the Panamera, not an SUV which for the last ten years has been the companies main source of income and is certainly not a lightweight sports car in any sense-- nothing with a heavy lump of a battery ever will be.
I have a few concerns with PP4.0
What is happening with the Macan and Cayenne range in the interim I understand the present Macan chassis is unsuitable for hybrid/ EV power , and the Macan is the current BIG seller at approx. 100,000 units per annum.The Liepzig factory might be a little quieter now the diesel model has been axed.
The Taycan is a high end EV like the Tesla model S and how many of them do you see on the road. Or BMW I8 for that matter , also depreciation on the I8 does not compare to a 911
All car companies and the Government are hopelessly optimistic regarding the rollout of charging infrastructure
it will take 10 or 20 years in my opinion and it better not involve digging up the roads!!
Pure EVs make little or no noise essential for a sports car and will further dampen demand.
Porsche and many other high end manufacturers are heavily reliant on the Chinese market for volume which is already showing signs of slowing down, and that's before Trumps Tariffs take effect. Do the Chinese want or need EVs??
Porsche have stated that they expect 50% of total sales to be EVs by 2025 that's approx. 125,000 units ,slightly optimistic in my opinion without Macan/ cayenne EVs
I think PP4.0 is being driven by bean counters and PR/ marketing men rather than engineers and I think many Porsche purists including myself are not even interested in EVs and more importantly do not need or want one
What say you lot Cheers Roy
The main driver for these is of course the ridiculous EU 95 kg/CO2 FLEET average emissions which all car companies have to comply with or face crippling fines.
Porsche intend to avoid all car emitted emissions completely by going totally electric long term, which involves betting the companies future and 6 billion Euros on Porsche Production 4.0 starting with the Taycan.
Not only that but the Taycan is a 4 door sports saloon in the style of the Panamera, not an SUV which for the last ten years has been the companies main source of income and is certainly not a lightweight sports car in any sense-- nothing with a heavy lump of a battery ever will be.
I have a few concerns with PP4.0
What is happening with the Macan and Cayenne range in the interim I understand the present Macan chassis is unsuitable for hybrid/ EV power , and the Macan is the current BIG seller at approx. 100,000 units per annum.The Liepzig factory might be a little quieter now the diesel model has been axed.
The Taycan is a high end EV like the Tesla model S and how many of them do you see on the road. Or BMW I8 for that matter , also depreciation on the I8 does not compare to a 911
All car companies and the Government are hopelessly optimistic regarding the rollout of charging infrastructure
it will take 10 or 20 years in my opinion and it better not involve digging up the roads!!
Pure EVs make little or no noise essential for a sports car and will further dampen demand.
Porsche and many other high end manufacturers are heavily reliant on the Chinese market for volume which is already showing signs of slowing down, and that's before Trumps Tariffs take effect. Do the Chinese want or need EVs??
Porsche have stated that they expect 50% of total sales to be EVs by 2025 that's approx. 125,000 units ,slightly optimistic in my opinion without Macan/ cayenne EVs
I think PP4.0 is being driven by bean counters and PR/ marketing men rather than engineers and I think many Porsche purists including myself are not even interested in EVs and more importantly do not need or want one
What say you lot Cheers Roy
Thanks Moose I haven't seen that graph, the other thing I didn't mention is possible battery revolution ie solid state instead of lith/ion which hoover Dyson is working on.
High end EVs will not change the overall market though mass change will be in Nissan Leaf territory and also overall car emissions are going up not down at present.
High end EVs will not change the overall market though mass change will be in Nissan Leaf territory and also overall car emissions are going up not down at present.
Macan EV is due in 2023 as part of the next platform. I saw on another forum a list of all the VW Group EV’s and posted it in a thread on here but no idea where!
Personally I think Porsche have done the right thing with the Taycan as they need to get people excited about EV and show it can be an exciting product so the6 can sell EVversions of their core product. I also think there’s a decent chance they can make Tesla’s look very ordinary, it’ll hopefully be massive step up in how it drives and how it’s made, I’ve got my name down for one...
Porsche and the other German OEM’s are rolling out a charging infrastructure across the major European roads in the next couple of years so that’s coming, bigger issue is people living in inner cities with no home charging,, solving that in cities like London is a major problem. Living out of London with the ability to charge my car at home a 200 mile plus range is absolutely fine and my only issue is annual holidays to Europe...but that’s where Porsche’s 800 volt tech means a Taycan can chargemuch quicker with the right charging station.
Interesting times and EVmay be the death of the 911 as when there’s no engine in the rear you can’t really say it’s a 911.
Personally I think Porsche have done the right thing with the Taycan as they need to get people excited about EV and show it can be an exciting product so the6 can sell EVversions of their core product. I also think there’s a decent chance they can make Tesla’s look very ordinary, it’ll hopefully be massive step up in how it drives and how it’s made, I’ve got my name down for one...
Porsche and the other German OEM’s are rolling out a charging infrastructure across the major European roads in the next couple of years so that’s coming, bigger issue is people living in inner cities with no home charging,, solving that in cities like London is a major problem. Living out of London with the ability to charge my car at home a 200 mile plus range is absolutely fine and my only issue is annual holidays to Europe...but that’s where Porsche’s 800 volt tech means a Taycan can chargemuch quicker with the right charging station.
Interesting times and EVmay be the death of the 911 as when there’s no engine in the rear you can’t really say it’s a 911.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Can't imagine I'd prefer an electric 'Cayster' to one with a proper engine but then again stranger things have happened.I really enjoyed the 718 Cayman S I had as a courtesy car recently. I think my expectations were low because of all the bad press about the F4. But in the end I warmed to the engine and found it quite characterful for a four pot. Yes it got a bit loud and coarse at times but had some nice, albeit contrived, pops on full throttle up changes. The chassis balance was a joy, steering passable, impressive pdk and overall a very quick car. EV tech still has a long way to go to reach the potential of this car. Especially when you consider I did nearly 800 miles over the weekend and filled up only twice, losing maybe 5 minutes each stop.
I spent Saturday at my local Porsche dealer here in Switzerland talking Taycan. As an ex-EV owner I think Porsche seem to have got it exactly right with what they're going to build.
I was told the Taycan will be a bit smaller than a Panamera and a bit cheaper. The 350kW charging should be a huge step forward. In my experience it's not necessarily range that is the most important thing about longer distance travel in an EV but charging times. We've already got a couple of 350kW chargers installation installed here (on the North-South route between Basel and Lugano) and the whole country, and the routes I take across Germany should be ready by Taycan launch. Charging 80% in 15 minutes with the Taycan range will not add much extra time to my typical journey as I tend to stop every 90 mins to take a break.
In terms of driving enjoyment my view is EVs don't offer exactly the same as a powerful petrol engine but they have offer things a petrol can't. When I needed to swap the i3 I ended up with a 340 with the m Performance pack (360ps / 500NM) as I had to go that powerful to get close to the feeling of responsiveness you get from the instant torque of an EV. The way something like a Tesla model S accelerates out of a hairpin has to be experienced.
For me it seems like Porsche know that the Taycan won't be the big seller but the form will provide the benefits of super low centre of gravity and better aero that the higher follow-up won't be quite able to match. Given they're likely to be constrained by battery availability they're probably right launching a halo-car first.
Porsche will take your deposit now. I'm personally waiting until sometime in the first part of 2019 to order which will still likely be a year before they're delivered.
The dealer was expecting launch to be Q4 2019.
I was told the Taycan will be a bit smaller than a Panamera and a bit cheaper. The 350kW charging should be a huge step forward. In my experience it's not necessarily range that is the most important thing about longer distance travel in an EV but charging times. We've already got a couple of 350kW chargers installation installed here (on the North-South route between Basel and Lugano) and the whole country, and the routes I take across Germany should be ready by Taycan launch. Charging 80% in 15 minutes with the Taycan range will not add much extra time to my typical journey as I tend to stop every 90 mins to take a break.
In terms of driving enjoyment my view is EVs don't offer exactly the same as a powerful petrol engine but they have offer things a petrol can't. When I needed to swap the i3 I ended up with a 340 with the m Performance pack (360ps / 500NM) as I had to go that powerful to get close to the feeling of responsiveness you get from the instant torque of an EV. The way something like a Tesla model S accelerates out of a hairpin has to be experienced.
For me it seems like Porsche know that the Taycan won't be the big seller but the form will provide the benefits of super low centre of gravity and better aero that the higher follow-up won't be quite able to match. Given they're likely to be constrained by battery availability they're probably right launching a halo-car first.
Porsche will take your deposit now. I'm personally waiting until sometime in the first part of 2019 to order which will still likely be a year before they're delivered.
The dealer was expecting launch to be Q4 2019.
ks to hanging around waiting for batteries to charge up. I'm actually vairly excited about the cross as I drive an Audi A4 Allroad and could see that replacing it as my daily.
The big UK issue on charging is three fold:
1) route infrastructure is woofully inadequate and I think will struggle to keep up when cars do start arriving in numbers, you therfore rely on home charging.
2) pretty much all domestic properties are limited to a 32amp ie 7.2kw fast charger, this irrelevant to car can only supply enough energy for circa 200miles with an overnight charge. This will not change because aero and motor efficiencies will not massively alter, weight might reduce but we are fairly stuck with this.
3) Biggest home charging issue is local substation sizing as they are based on 2.5kw average per house. If a house is charging for 10 hours it ia 8-10kw..
If over 25% to 40% of an estate plugs BEVs in the substation fuse will go and you have blackouts!
This is not easy to upgrade as there is not the space often for a larger transformer and all the HV wiring needs to be upsized from the sub to the grid..
It will eb interesting and I think the substation issue has been brushed under the carpet with the idea of smart charging to balance load. this won't work if everyone is doing a full chage as it takes all night.
The big UK issue on charging is three fold:
1) route infrastructure is woofully inadequate and I think will struggle to keep up when cars do start arriving in numbers, you therfore rely on home charging.
2) pretty much all domestic properties are limited to a 32amp ie 7.2kw fast charger, this irrelevant to car can only supply enough energy for circa 200miles with an overnight charge. This will not change because aero and motor efficiencies will not massively alter, weight might reduce but we are fairly stuck with this.
3) Biggest home charging issue is local substation sizing as they are based on 2.5kw average per house. If a house is charging for 10 hours it ia 8-10kw..
If over 25% to 40% of an estate plugs BEVs in the substation fuse will go and you have blackouts!
This is not easy to upgrade as there is not the space often for a larger transformer and all the HV wiring needs to be upsized from the sub to the grid..
It will eb interesting and I think the substation issue has been brushed under the carpet with the idea of smart charging to balance load. this won't work if everyone is doing a full chage as it takes all night.
Very good article in January issue of 911 and Porsche world saying future success of EV vehicles is all about future battery tech and solid state batteries are a long way from being viable commercially.
Dyson,Toyota, BMW, VW,and Tesla are all working on them and Toyota is now saying not before 2030 or beyond.
The car industry and the public will have plenty of time to judge how successful or otherwise current laptop batt tech will be regarding range/ battery life/ depreciation/ recycling/sustainability/etc etc in that timeframe.
Dyson,Toyota, BMW, VW,and Tesla are all working on them and Toyota is now saying not before 2030 or beyond.
The car industry and the public will have plenty of time to judge how successful or otherwise current laptop batt tech will be regarding range/ battery life/ depreciation/ recycling/sustainability/etc etc in that timeframe.
Shock Horror, according to 911 and Porsche world the Taycan will not be in production until 2022!!
I thought it was launching this year. Is it taking longer to build the factory?
Moose -will they still get to 125,000 EV sales by 2025, with presumably delays to other leccy models.?
Is the launch still on for this year?
I thought it was launching this year. Is it taking longer to build the factory?
Moose -will they still get to 125,000 EV sales by 2025, with presumably delays to other leccy models.?
Is the launch still on for this year?
So the Taycan is on time and presumably on budget and with a waiting list of 30,000!! deposits
That's Porsches brand image for you worldwide.
In my original post it seems I have underestimated the Chinese demand for EVs !!
Perfomance /Quality will not be an issue but it will still be silent and heavy and making all those battery packs will be a challenge.
That's Porsches brand image for you worldwide.
In my original post it seems I have underestimated the Chinese demand for EVs !!
Perfomance /Quality will not be an issue but it will still be silent and heavy and making all those battery packs will be a challenge.
thelostboy said:
I saw the stats today, the "Turbo S" is heavier and slower than the current top Model S and well specced will be over £170,000.
Are people really going to be buying these to save a few grand on fuel a year?
If you read up on some of the specs or some of the videos you will find that yes the top model tesla is technically faster but thats across 2 or 3 runs, it needs to be set in certain modes before it can go to attain this time and after its done it needs a rest for 3 or 4 mins so it doesn't crap all over itself. the taycan can do it time over and over and over and over and yeah you guessed it over again without all the kafuffle. Foot down and go. Are people really going to be buying these to save a few grand on fuel a year?
I have to say I am impressed, i am not buying one and I cannot phathom having something that quick without the pleasure of noise but I can take my hat off to such a fantastic bit of kit.
Yes, that sounds great, but in the real world when do you need to do repeated launches?
That also makes little sense when the comparison I saw showed the Tesla had a better range.
For the record, I'm not a Tesla fan! Would never pay what they expect for what looks like a 20 year old minicab inside with a huge iPad thrown in.
That also makes little sense when the comparison I saw showed the Tesla had a better range.
For the record, I'm not a Tesla fan! Would never pay what they expect for what looks like a 20 year old minicab inside with a huge iPad thrown in.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff