997 on circuit

[johnag007]

Hello,
Had a 996 4S which I sold because I did was disappointed at not getting much out of it except for outright acceleration (clearly my fault, not the car), but I still have the bug. I therefore decided to do a 3 days intensive racing course at Silverstone before buying anything else, and got my British Racing Licence in the process. Wow what a feeling the whole thing was!!!

Anyway, cars used were Lotus Elise for Silverstone, Caterham for steer/slide control, a little of an Audi A4 on the skidpan and mostly Formula Ford single seaters. I want to continue at the very least with track days, and need a car to do it in. A Lotus Elise is not what I want since I like to oversteer for the fun of it. An Ariel Atom is what I would like, if only it was at least as usable as an Elise. Lastly, if I were to replace my existing car, then 2+2 would be a very strong reason over a 2 seater.

So, should I go for a 997 (would not go older since I like the looks & creature comforts), wait for the Cayman S (2 seater only), or is the 997 to big/heavy to really enjoy on a circuit compared to what I just went through (remember, I did quite a few hours in Formula Ford single seaters)?

Would you know of any dealer that offer 997 testing on a track also, how much should I budget for track days wear & tear?

Honest opinions apreciated, even if it means "don't buy a Porsche".

Thanks,

JAG

[adamt]

For trackdays, i would get a 996 GT3.

They are wholly superb machines on track

all the best
adam

[Glenn McMenamin]

Got to be a GT3 IMO

You can get a comfort version, but still has no sat nav etc.

Although, have come up against a 997S on track, and it was going pretty well with the PASM gizmo on.


G.

>> Edited by Glenn McMenamin on Wednesday 11th May 13:52

[johnag007]

Thanks, but GT3 as far as I know has 2 seats. I am not prepare to spend that kind of money on a 2 seater. I know I mentioned the Cayman S, but realistically £35.000 is the max I would be prepared to spend on 2 seats, could go above this only if it was really special.

JAG

[leosayer]

If you want oversteer and four seats then surely the BMW M3 should be on your list.

[911 habit]

Well, if you want the GT3 peformance (or greater), but want the 2+2, then a 996 Turbo is the way to go, but these will be more than 35k. Maybe some older turbo or RS 911?

[s3am]

Love my GT3, superb on track, but as you say not a 4 seater.

Only problem I have with the comfort spec is the lack of lateral support and the slippy leather with aren't ideal for high G cornering. Find myself hanging on the the steering wheel to prevent myself driving from the passenger side!

[targarama]

Caterham + trailor, job done. You won't get anywhere near the feel of a single seater in any 'normal' road car.

A GT3 or M3 CSL are closest German choices though.

[Blow Dog]

Cayman S will be 50k + reportedly.

Cem

[s3am]

I know this is the Porsche forum, but with your criteria I have to recommend the M3 CSL. 4 seats, stonking round a track -balanced, crisp steering, very fast.

Got to be under 40k now for a barely used example.

Only shame is the SMG, needs a manual

Sam

[johnag007]

Thanks for all the answers. Actually one of the guys with me at Silverstone had a CSL, but we did not get to test it on the track. I did test the car on the road, and had an idiot reverse into me at the end of the test drive. Clearly the BMW salesman was not happy to say the least.

Regarding M3s in general, I want something with more feel, how much more depends on the budget: up to £35.000 for a compromised 2 seater, up to £70.000 if it is to replace my existing car.

So Cayman looks too expensive, so does the GT3 with only 2 seats. M3 not enough feel, Caterham is good, but I would go for the Atom.

Has anyone driven a 997 on the circuit, how does it feel?

JAG

[jjr1]

A Carrera S with -20mm lapped the Nurburgring 1 second faster than a Mk1 Gt3 so don't worry about anyone suggesting it is too slow or not properly set up for track work.

I had my 997S on track a few weeks ago and it was superb entertainment. You must have PSM turned off as it is far too intrusive to allow any fun. The car like all 911's is set up to understeer so if you want tail out action you have to enter bends with a touch of trailing throttle or a slight lift. Amazingly the car is easier to hold broadside than an M3 which is a master of oversteer.

As for tracking it again that could prove expensive as I enjoyed myself so much in 3rd gear corners looking out of the passenger window that I killed two brand new tyres in 1 day and ddidn't even get out for the last session.

So if you want something more practical than a GT3 and at least as fast (driver makes much more of a difference than model number) then get yourself a 997S on -20mm suspension. The PASM equipped car is far more understeery and nowhere near as communicative when sliding.

[johnag007]

Great, now I am getting somewhere.I did not understand your PSM/PASM comments: in your last line you state "the PASM car is far more understeery", aren't all "S" models equipped with it?

JAG

[johnny senna]

johnag007 said:

Great, now I am getting somewhere.I did not understand your PSM/PASM comments: in your last line you state "the PASM car is far more understeery", aren't all "S" models equipped with it? JAG

No, the -20mm car does not have active suspension (PASM), but it does still have Porsche Stability Management (PSM). The 2 are often confused.

It depends how many track days you do. If you are only going to do 4-5 max per year, then stick with the 997S with PASM. If you are going to do more than that, then the -20mm chassis would be better, but the ride WILL be harder on the road.

The 996 Turbo would be a good bet too. However for your needs, it is a very close call between this and the 997S. Sure, the Turbo is quicker mainly due to bundles of torque, but the interior isn't as good as the 997S and it doesn't look as fresh.

You need to go to a dealer and drive both a 997S and a 996 Turbo.

By the way, the Cayman S will be 50 grand. It will only have 2 seats. It will lap very quickly mind and it will be fun having the newest Porsche out there (for the first 6 months or so anyway). Dynamically I'd expect this car to rule (apart from a 996 GT3 of 993 RS!!).

[steve rance]

I drove a 997S with sports suspension at Bedford last year. Nice car, great engine for a road car with lots of torque and the chassis was nice a chuckable but too soft for serious track work. I would certainly question it's reported lap time around the ring though. I wouldn't put it under 8 minutes unless it was modded or had soft tyres. It was some way off a MK1 GT3 on the GT Circuit at Bedford. If you are going to track the car regularly, get a GT3, it is a far better track car. If you don't want to do too much track work, get a 997 - it's got seats in the back.

Steve R

[johnag007]

OK, so does anyone know of a dealer who will let me demo either cars on a track?

JAG

[Glenn McMenamin]

johnag007 said:

OK, so does anyone know of a dealer who will let me demo either cars on a track? JAG

I was just about to say 'yer, as if '..... but i remembered, aren't Evo magazine doing some manufacturers days this year, i think they are at Bedford some time over the summer, and they bring a selection of cars for nailing !!!!


G.

[jjr1]

steve rance said:

I drove a 997S with sports suspension at Bedford last year. Nice car, great engine for a road car with lots of torque and the chassis was nice a chuckable but too soft for serious track work. I would certainly question it's reported lap time around the ring though. I wouldn't put it under 8 minutes unless it was modded or had soft tyres. It was some way off a MK1 GT3 on the GT Circuit at Bedford. If you are going to track the car regularly, get a GT3, it is a far better track car. If you don't want to do too much track work, get a 997 - it's got seats in the back. Steve R

Too soft for serious track work? Are you sure this car had -20mm suspension? I had a racing driver follow my car round at one point and he said he had never seen a car as flat through the bends. It does pitch and dive under acceleration though if that is what you mean.

As for lap times the 997S (-20mm) tracked faster than the GT3 Mk1 by one second and that was as standard.

The other reason why you would want a -20mm equipped car if you are doing trackdays is because it comes with a LSD

[John Lloyd]

johnag007 said:

An Ariel Atom is what I would like,

This is a copy of an email I sent recently to someone else interested in the Atom.

Quote "To be honest it pissed them all off the track and that's only me on my second track day!!!

I've got the 220bhp, but I tell you, get a little confidence and if you don't mind the odd spin or two it's great.

There will always be a couple of very professional people, cars on trailers, etc and lots of track day experience, but I found it fun just blasting past the odd Lotus, TVR and Caterham.

As Bruce has said the Atom will beat most cars on a track day. What I have learnt in only two track days is that the organisers don't actually want you to go very fast. This suits the Atom, because of it's very quick acceleration. Lots of corners and short straights." Unquote

The only thing you need is proper clothing, get that right and then it's great fun. everyone you drive past is gobsmacked by the car even Porsche drivers and mine was all for less than £30k. It's a car.

[m12_nathan]

jjr1 said:

steve rance said: I drove a 997S with sports suspension at Bedford last year. Nice car, great engine for a road car with lots of torque and the chassis was nice a chuckable but too soft for serious track work. I would certainly question it's reported lap time around the ring though. I wouldn't put it under 8 minutes unless it was modded or had soft tyres. It was some way off a MK1 GT3 on the GT Circuit at Bedford. If you are going to track the car regularly, get a GT3, it is a far better track car. If you don't want to do too much track work, get a 997 - it's got seats in the back. Steve R Too soft for serious track work? Are you sure this car had -20mm suspension? I had a racing driver follow my car round at one point and he said he had never seen a car as flat through the bends. It does pitch and dive under acceleration though if that is what you mean. As for lap times the 997S (-20mm) tracked faster than the GT3 Mk1 by one second and that was as standard. The other reason why you would want a -20mm equipped car if you are doing trackdays is because it comes with a LSD

The ring is nothing like a uk circuit though, too bumpy for any proper track suspension (GT3 GT2).

The CSL was 13 seconds quicker than the MK1 GT3 round the 'ring and only 1 second behind a GT3 Cup but on a modern race track the GT3 cup would absolutely murder the CSL.

Some times with the same driver:


06/2001 Porsche 996 GT2 7:46
03/2004 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 7:47
02/1999 Porsche 911 GT3 Cup 7:49
06/2002 Lamborghini Murciélago 7:50
08/2003 BMW M3 CSL 7:50
06/2004 Mercedes SLR McLaren 7:52
12/2003 Lamborghini Gallardo 7:52
06/2003 Porsche 996 GT3 (facelift) 7:54
02/2004 Ferrari Challenge Stradale 7:56
06/2000 Porsche 996 911 turbo 7:56
05/1998 Lotec Porsche 911 Turbo 7:57
08/1999 Porsche 911 GT3 8:03
07/2000 Lamborghini Diablo GT 8:04
12/2002 Ferrari 575M Maranello 8:05
06/1998 Ferrari 550 Maranello 8:07
08/2002 Honda NSX R 8:09